Author Topic: Wanted: Jumbo  (Read 9802 times)

Offline skiffless man

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Wanted: Jumbo
« on: August 28, 2013, 09:36:32 AM »
I have been a lurker mostly since becoming a member here. I enjoy checking in and seeing what some of you are up too. I have a ton of respect for those of you that build and offer help to others. 

I know this will be a long shot but thought I would give it a try. Does not have to happen tomorrow by any means. I just don't think I am up for a build.

I have a 19' Arima Sea Ranger and they are a great boat. Very capable. I would like something a bit longer and with a full enclosed pilothouse. Ability to comfortable handle two on an extended outing, maybe a week or possibly two. On rare occassion sleep four. I have been considering a used C-dory as well.

I have a 115hp two stroke outboard that I could use on a boat if one was either built or offered with out power.  I also have a useable double axle trailer that could accomodate a Jumbo I believe. I am flexible that way.

If the boat was built complete, hull, pilothouse, paint, etc. I could handle the wiring, steering, fuel system etc.

I am not opposed to buying a solid used skiff either.

As far as budget goes. That is always the big question. Probably about the value of my older Arima.
I would be willing to talk trade for it as well. 

I am in the Western quadrant of the US. 

PM's welcomed.

Thanks.



Offline skiffless man

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Re: Wanted: Jumbo
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2013, 09:14:24 PM »
Since it has been a couple of month's and a few things have happened I thought I would update my post.

I want to thank those who contacted me through this site. It was good to get some info from some of you that are boat builders and owners.

Now for the update.
I did sell one of my Arima's. Would love to end up with a Tolman Jumbo with cabin and Pilothouse. As I said in my original post. I do not see myself doing a build for a variety of reasons.
 I Do have a good 115hp outboard with controls and a good double axle trailer. I am in MT. but have family in Nw Or. And Sw Wa. Would love to find a quality builder fairly close to me to crunch some numbers to see how feasible a build would be.
I might consider a boat that is already built as well.

Please pm
me with questions,thoughts or suggestions.

Thanks all, skifflessman
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 09:53:49 AM by skiffless man »

Offline David Nolan

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Re: Wanted: Jumbo
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2013, 06:22:54 PM »
Probably the single most often thought question, not asked, is what your budget is.       You may have to wait.    Most of the time i see a boat for sale it is due to some unfortunate circumstance.     A divorce, lost job, or worse.     Finding a builder for a one off boat might be pricey as the learning curve is steep and the first hull takes a lot longer.    Id look for a builder on the east coast and tow it home.

Offline skiffless man

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Re: Wanted: Jumbo
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2013, 07:06:23 PM »
Thanks for your thoughts David. I have had a builder in AK offer his services and Chuck (Grady300) mentioned one time he maybe could possibly do it.

Is their a list of builder's in the US somewhere?

Offline jim shula

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Re: Wanted: Jumbo
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2013, 07:49:03 PM »
What Dave said.  Occasionally Tolmans come up for sale on the forum,  but you have to keep your eyes and ears open to get on one before it's gone.   You would never come close to buying a completed cabin/pilothouse Jumbo from a boatbuilder for what you sold the used Arima for.

Offline skiffless man

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Re: Wanted: Jumbo
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2013, 08:15:40 PM »
Thanks Jim, I have been keeping my eyes open.

In terms of your last comment. Arima's are a pnw boat and have a wonderful following there and even used ones sell well there. Much different than an occassional one that may sell on the east coast. I did ok.  ;) Sold it in Portland Or.

 Thanks.

Offline David Nolan

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Re: Wanted: Jumbo
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2013, 07:59:03 AM »
Several people have tried to build boats commercially.   It seems the timing is always off.   There are a few guys looking for builders each year.    I think the seriouos ones end up building.   Tolman builders come from all walks of life and social and economic status.   There are well off guys who build, and guys who build out of necessity or that dont want a $1000 offshore fuel bill (or even a $200 day fishing trip bill).

The serious guys find a way to build.  Its been done in very tight places, out of doors, in all climates.   A case in point the guy rebuilding that boat on the tropical island (very inspiring by the way the can do attitude).

If you dont have the time, or maybe you cant because of phyiscal limitations or whatever, you have to find the good sale.    Good change GAVE away an awesome boat this summer.   I wanted to get in the truck and drive 1000 miles to buy it. 

Ive seen some good buys on fishy.  I forget whos 22 ft jumbo went for like 14K with the 90 honda on it.  The motor cost 9K already.  he ended up getting zero for his hard work.

Then too there is the practical matter of hiring a builder to sell you a new boat.  Commercial boat builders have to follow all the rules pertaining to boat manufacturers, whereas personal boat builders codes are less strict.  Im not sure how that would work.  What would probably have to be done, is the guy register the boat as his own homebuilt boat, and then resell it.   So there is a tax and registration issue also.  Probably the tax would be waived once paid in some state if they had reciprocity for tax purposes.   

I just tried to think what the minimum a guy might be inclined to build for.  I have no idea really.   Boat places charge about $100 an hour plus or minus for work.  Lets say its just a guy who knows how to cut wood and put these things together with some speed and skill using epoxy.  (Anthony comes to mind).

What would a fair labor rate be.  $100 would be too much.  Boat would be over priced.  So I used 25 and 40 dollars an hour for say some guy who was doing it as fun and to make some money.

You see how it adds up.

The final rigging takes some planning, and he would need to know steering and battery placement, and such.   But I think a basic hull and cabin idea would work, specifying your height so he could cut the cabin and house correctly, and then you finish the boat off.   Finishing it goes quickly.   Mine still isn’t done but I got the whole season in on it.   I even have some bare wood and bare glass.  One season didn’t hurt it a lick.

Anyway, heres my back of the envelope cost.  Maybe add in 15% for cost underruns.  Lets say you had to go 1000 miles to get it.   2000 miles / 10 mpg is 200 gals at $3.50.  $700 for picking up your own boat.   so dont rule out a local builder.  transpo cost is a small percentage.

Finally, think about the savings you get with a tolman.  No dock fees. “At least” double the economy of a similar boat, but I think $65% savings is more like it.  27 foot boats around me are getting 1.25-1.5 mpg.   I get 3.5 plus….  It will get better as fuel goes back up….   



Offline David Nolan

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Re: Wanted: Jumbo
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2013, 08:01:46 AM »
if it was me, and it isnt, all the line items would be non-negotiable.  you cant cut a good skiff if you are dehydrated... :)

Offline David Nolan

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Re: Wanted: Jumbo
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2013, 08:04:23 AM »
so the 25 ft workboat at the lowest labor rate is $25,000.   the high grade awlgrip boat is $52,000.

The boats would ride identically.   shiny boats are nice, but I have a lot better things to do with $27 K than polish my shiny 25 wooden skiff.

ask Renn which one he suggests :)


Offline skiffless man

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Re: Wanted: Jumbo
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2013, 08:53:19 AM »
Thanks David, I had seen that boat quite awhile ago. Not what I am looking for. Looks nicely built and great power though.

Yes, finding one that someone is selling, hopefully to build another and not one of the other alternatives. Would be good. That may happen. Maybe they could keep their outboard for the next boat which would make it more affordable for me.

 A 22' to 23' er would be ideal.  As far as building one. Will just need to crunch some numbers.  I will need to study the cost sheet you provided a bit.

Thank you I appreciate you thoughts.

Offline jim shula

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Re: Wanted: Jumbo
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2013, 08:55:52 AM »
I saw yesterday doing a quick search for Arima boats that they hold their value well.  Still, a custom built Tolman Jumbo will cost more than a new 19' Arima.  Here are a couple data points to add to Dave's post:  

The Martin-Berry Jumbo in the gallery cost the owners about $75k including power and trailer when it was finished.  I talked with Jake Berry, a woodworker here in Maine who built the boat for the owner.  

Neal said that a well-found Jumbo in the Anchorage area will bring $60-$70k (going from memory so the amounts may not be 100% accurate, but it was staggering).  

Dave's estimate of $40/hr for labor is a little low in my area when you consider overhead such as heat, lights, depreciation on the shop, and liability insurance, but even using $40/hr, I think a completed Jumbo would take at least 1,000 hours.  Add in the cost of materials, a motor and trailer and the price tag is up there with Neal's and Jake's.

So the way to get into a Tolman without building yourself or paying for a custom build is to watch the forum for owners who for one reason or another decide to sell their boats.  Good chance, Brian Dixon, Dave Wright, Curtis Hanson, Aaron Enstadt, and a few others I can't remember all sold at very reasonable prices.

Offline jim shula

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Re: Wanted: Jumbo
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2013, 08:59:37 AM »
Skiffless - looking at that ad Dave posted, the price seems pretty good considering it has a 115(?) Honda on it.  A few hours with the sawzall and the cabin could be gone so you could build what you want on it.

Offline David Nolan

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Re: Wanted: Jumbo
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2013, 09:19:52 AM »
I had 600 hrs for a workboat finish.   I had 1000 hrs for a higher end finish fit to be sprayed. 

If I ever build again, Im going for a rough workboat finish.   the workboat finish is too nice for my boating.   then too, that quick fair made it easy to fair.  I just wanted to be fishing.

the other way to do it I guess, would be for a negotiated fee  for the boat.

I think when a guy gets on a mission, he can build one of these fast if that is his singular purpose.   Ive thought a lot about this and am still confounded by the speed of it... 

As a case in point, I helped a guy build a hull this summer.   We worked maybe 10-12 hrs a day for a week.  he got the hull from one of jims kits to darn near completely glassed in one week...  the hull was as good as loooking as any I ever saw and fairer than the boat I had just completed.

                                                                     



Offline David Nolan

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Re: Wanted: Jumbo
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2013, 09:24:27 AM »
another way of thinking about it is asking Tolman owners "what would you sell your boat for?"

My wife asks me that a lot.   she knows it cost me about 30K.   so she asked if I'd sell it for $60K.    I said no.  that would be $30K profit and $60 an hr.   But Id not have a boat to go fishing in.

The next boat I could build in 450 hrs Im sure.  But I think that keith would quit if i started destroying the garage again.