Author Topic: cleaning with ammonia  (Read 8772 times)

Offline gakonasteff

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cleaning with ammonia
« on: April 16, 2008, 07:19:21 PM »
what is the reason for using household ammonia for cleaning after sanding? are there any alternatives??
Steffan
Gakona,Alaska

Offline kiwi les

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Re: cleaning with ammonia
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2008, 02:32:11 AM »
Have a clean up before :o sanding, removes the ammonia blush and waxes that accumulate on the top of the laminate after curing. The waxes can fill sandpapers making sanding a chore!!  les

Offline kchace

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Re: cleaning with ammonia
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2008, 07:06:13 AM »
Its very important to remove any amine blush before applying another coat of *anything* (epoxy or paint). The amine blush acts and feels a lot like wax. Plus, if you sand epoxy that has amine blush on it you will drive it into the epoxy and make it almost impossible to remove.

  That said, its very easy to wash it off. You do not need anything except clear water and a Scotchbrite pad. It doesn't take a lot of scrubbing, just a quick pass with the pad and a lot of water. If you can't use a hose to rinse it, be sure to have a big towel to wipe it all off. Because all the water and pad will do is cause it to flow off, but you need to get it off the hull somehow.

  I find that Progressive Epoxy "Basic No-blush" *will* actually blush in cool, damp conditions. (But not if conditions are kept at 60 or above for the full duration of the cure)

  Here is an excellent paper on dealing with amine blush from the folks at West System:

http://www.atlcomposites.com/pdf/west-amine_blush.pdf

  Ken
Ken Chace
The Lucky C
25' Jumbo

Offline JMB

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Re: cleaning with ammonia
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2008, 02:43:46 AM »
Question from newbie:
How much ammonia added to how much water?
Bottom placement...attempted to move bottom at station #6, after screwing at transom and bowstem, but would not move.
So, wedged 1" between the starboard side stringer, now only 1/4" off when measuring at the port side.
Should it be a more precise distance from the sides measuring to the stringers?
And, when I dry fitted the bottom to the stem, it would not fit very well until I cut off about 2" from the bowstem. + lots of grinding.
Will this effect the placement of the bottom?
+ where do I trim the 1/8" off so the side panels fit the added bottom 1/4"?
Yes, I am not a boatbuilder.  But, I know enough to measure at least 3x then cut!
Thanks for any assistance.  Hope to launch next summer.  So, I have a lot of time to ask questions!

Offline kchace

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Re: cleaning with ammonia
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2008, 06:18:55 AM »
As I outlined above, no ammonia is needed. Warm water and a scrub pad quickly rubbed over will completely liquify the blush. All that's really required after that is a big towel to wipe it all off - lest the blush just dry right back onto the surface.

  If you need more proof - read this from West System:

http://www.atlcomposites.com/pdf/west-amine_blush.pdf

Ken

Ken Chace
The Lucky C
25' Jumbo

Offline GlacierBoats

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Re: cleaning with ammonia
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2008, 08:09:17 AM »
Question from newbie:
How much ammonia added to how much water?
Bottom placement...attempted to move bottom at station #6, after screwing at transom and bowstem, but would not move.
So, wedged 1" between the starboard side stringer, now only 1/4" off when measuring at the port side.
Should it be a more precise distance from the sides measuring to the stringers?
And, when I dry fitted the bottom to the stem, it would not fit very well until I cut off about 2" from the bowstem. + lots of grinding.
Will this effect the placement of the bottom?
+ where do I trim the 1/8" off so the side panels fit the added bottom 1/4"?
Yes, I am not a boatbuilder.  But, I know enough to measure at least 3x then cut!
Thanks for any assistance.  Hope to launch next summer.  So, I have a lot of time to ask questions!

Someone's going to miss your additional questions since this thread looks like one on ammonia ..so I'll try to answer them.

1) Ammonia:  I just fill a 5-gallon bucket about half full, the give a few good glub-glubs out of the bottle of ammonia... it's not an exact science.  In spite of the WEST System article, it was the Gougeon Brothers / WEST book where I first saw ammonia mentioned.  It certainly cannot hurt.

2) I'm not sure I understand your bottom movement question ...if it's screwed to the transom, then doesn't that prevent movement?

3) Trimming side panels?  Are you actually talking about the 2nd layer of plywood on the bow area versus where it fits along the chine flats?  I like to keep a a gap between the 2nd layer of bow plywood and the chine flats so I can more easily squeeze epoxy into that joint when glassing.  If you are talking about how the side panels fit along the chine flat, the answer is that there is no 'adjustment' or trimming involved.  You hang the plywood on the side of the boat with the angled blocks and screws as Renn describes, mark the line underneath, and then cut along that line.  The side panel plywood fits corner-to-corner with the chine flat plywood and does not overlap it or anything like that.  Along the sheer, you mark and cut the side panel plywood so it is too tall... extends above the shelves.  You'll trim it flush later on after turning the boat.

As far as fitting the stem goes, it does need to be milled down so its shape fits the shape of the bottom panels.  Renn mentions that once the stem is shaped to fit, that it's a good idea to inset that surface into the stem another 1/8" or more ...is that what you are talking about?  In any case, once the stem fits the bottom panels, just mill off more wood so the shape is the same but the bottom panel can slide aft about 1/8" or a little more.  And don't worry about this detail too much.  Because of the wood stem, there is a lot of wood here to play with and you can shape the bow later if you need to (without feeling bad about it or risking any structural issues).  Take a look at the pictures at my web site (links and email addy out of date) and see if it helps clarify the fitting and insetting:

http://glacierboats.com/tongass/step12.html  (Shows trimming on the stem and mentions 1/8" inset)

http://glacierboats.com/tongass/step13.html  (Shows how to fit side panels to boat)

Brian

The Great Alaskan - Professional performance - Easy to build! - https://www.glacierboats.com  ><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º>

Offline JMB

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Re: cleaning with ammonia
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2008, 03:10:47 PM »
Brian:
Sorry, I should have mentioned, I am building a 20' Standard.
Renn mentions to fasten 1 nail/screw at stem and transom.  Then push/pull the section of bottom at station #6.
Which doesn't seem to move unless you dip it down or up. 
But, doesn't go sideways.  So, I wedged the stringer, on starboard side about 1" out.  And, it measures about 1/4" off on the port side, now.  Well, about the same 1/4" out.

Thanks for the information about ammonia.

Before I ground  the bottom down, or any fiberglass with epoxy resin for that matter, I have used the Scotchbright pad and water and paper towels.  Then I ground and Renn mentions the ammonia and cleaning with after the grinding.  So, that's why I asked about the ammonia.

And, thanks for reading about my other questions.  I don't know how many times I have read the chapter about hanging the panels.  No 2 ways are alike.  But, I do have 2 sides to perfect whatever method is out there.  And, hopefully, that will be in 2 weeks or so.
Like I said it will be a 1+ year project.
JMB

Offline GlacierBoats

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Re: cleaning with ammonia
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2008, 04:34:59 PM »

Oh... Renn's talking about centering the bottom panel assembly!  I was thinking fore/aft not side to side.  1/4" isn't a big deal and can't be seen, but if you want to get it closer then you may need to lift the bow end up high enough to let it move side to side.  If it keeps slipping into the natural, but slightly wrong, spot, you can always screw blocks on the inside of the bottom panels that will ride against he stringers and keep the assembly from slipping off to one side.  Shouldn't be necessary though.  I'll guarantee plenty of boats were built with far larger errors and most builders probably don't even know!  The ocean won't care...

You're making fast progress if you're getting it done in only a year and you have the usual life constraints that most of us have.  I won't mention how long I've been at it ..."at it" is a somewhat subjective description too.  I'm better at storage than building...

When I clean with ammonia, I just wash down the boat with a rag and ammonia water, then again with fresh water, then forget about it until I'm ready for a second coat or additional epoxy work.  I sand (and wipe down with damp towel) right before doing the epoxy work ...letting any dampness dry of course!  Before sanding, you can always walk down the length of the boat while dragging your hand along the epoxy coating ...if it comes off waxy, it needs washing.  Oftentimes, all you need to do is sand.

Brian
The Great Alaskan - Professional performance - Easy to build! - https://www.glacierboats.com  ><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º>

Offline chuck9982

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Re: cleaning with ammonia
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2008, 07:25:16 AM »
Hanging the sides seems intimidating it is really not that bad once you get at it. A few screws in the blocks, and a zip strip here and there to pull in any puckers and it will be on.  I crawled underneath and put a line of masking tape on the seam before I puttied to save on clean up.  It worked great just pull your tape early the next morning.
Pizza Chuck
Graham, WA
Building J25.2
Started 3/2008
Got wet 7/2008 Cape Cod Bay
Got wet 2009 Charleston, SC
 & Lake Erie.
Got wet 2010 Some Kansas Lakes
Got wet 2011 Texas lakes and the Gulf of Mexico.
Got wet 2012 in Puget Sound.
2014 mothballed…..
2022 beginning the resurrection

Offline tolman_paul

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Re: cleaning with ammonia
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2008, 10:20:30 AM »
I managed everything but flipping the hull solo, so don't feel any task is too daunting.  For the side panels I put the front panels on, then scarfed them to the doubled up rear panels.  In hind sight that was a bad move, as it's tought to fair the joint as it ends on a curve.  I'd scarf the front two panels, and hang them, then scarf the rear panel to the forward two.

Offline chuck9982

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Re: cleaning with ammonia
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2008, 10:33:24 AM »
I scarfed the 3 and 1/2 pieces for the sides on the saw horses. My wife helped move the piece to the boat for dry fit and attachment.  Awkward but not too heavy, at least with the Okume I used.
Pizza Chuck
Graham, WA
Building J25.2
Started 3/2008
Got wet 7/2008 Cape Cod Bay
Got wet 2009 Charleston, SC
 & Lake Erie.
Got wet 2010 Some Kansas Lakes
Got wet 2011 Texas lakes and the Gulf of Mexico.
Got wet 2012 in Puget Sound.
2014 mothballed…..
2022 beginning the resurrection

Offline GlacierBoats

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Re: cleaning with ammonia
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2008, 03:29:19 PM »

I made the side panels for my 22' Jumbo in two halves ...the forward 2 sections.  I scarfed together the two pieces for the front half of the boat and I scarfed together the two pieces for the aft half of the boat.  Then I hung the front half on the boat, then I hung the aft half.  When you do it that way, you don't have to lift such cumbersome long pieces and the joint where front half meets aft half lands along the side of the boat where there is no curvature.  It's actually pretty easy to do it this way.  The web site pointed to above details the process and has pictures.

Brian

The Great Alaskan - Professional performance - Easy to build! - https://www.glacierboats.com  ><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º>

Offline kiwi les

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Re: cleaning with ammonia
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2008, 11:44:23 AM »
I wish I had put the two front pannels together, as I did them 1 at a time. Just a small defect which I had to fair out. To make handling sheets on the boat a little easier, I clamped blocks on the deck sheer, allowing for an over hang, and rested the sheet on these. When gluing up, I had the sheet in postion with a screw in each corner, I simply removed two end screws, wedged the sheet out a litle, then forced glue into the gap as far as I could, working from the inside as well, replaced the screws at the end, released the other two, and did the same. No hassels no mess. The is a page some where on the glen -l site that shows how to do the join on the side to bottom section at the bow. I am having trouble finding it. Will do another search tonight.

les

Offline JMB

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Re: cleaning with ammonia
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2008, 11:27:55 PM »
Wow!  Thanks for the numerous responses.  You all are way ahead of me.  Tuesday when I got home from my midnight shift, I ate a piece of pizza then mixed and glue, lots of West just like you all and Mr. Renn instructed.  I have been using #205 for hardener.  My basement is always cool, in Maine.  About 60* I believe.  Managed to get it done.  Looked every so often to see if everything was screwing properly.  I measured quite a bit from stringer to edge of bottom.  Then transferred that measurement + about 1 inch, to area which was being screwed next.  Only missed x2.
But, I looked a gap in stern about 6" from limber hole which was about 1/4" tall.  Yes, Mr. Renn did advise to brace from basement rafters.  Did not correct gap.  Yes, you all know the answer to that one.......the epoxy+ filler had gone off!
Did take about 7 hrs to complete the job + cleanup.  Yes, I am quite a bit slower..especially after working already 8hrs.
Then I spent another 2+ hours filling the edges along the inside the stringers, where they attach to the bottom, but this included within the 7 hours.
Wednesday, my only day off I only mustered enough ambition to fit the 1/4" filler piece x3.  Planing the scarf area and cutting to fit.
So, yes I am work typing this and  boring everyone to tears, after work will glue then add fibers then screw 1 panel down.  Hopefully, only take a few hours.  I have to work the 4th of July and have to sleep sometime.  I already spent a happy hour, can you see me whistling and smiling, cutting about 30-3/8ths wooden washers and attaching 1" sheetrock screws.  Got 2 -75lb sandbags + a 50 lb on the boat left over from screwing the bottom, ready to be swung over the panel.  I tied one bag off to the strongback and it is hanging over the steepest side of the bow.   Just have to remove, glue, fiberwith glue, then
start screwing to the bottom then use the heavy bags of sand.
There you have it.
Then hopefully, I will be able to partake and practice with all your suggestions.   Especially the marvelous photos on the website.
Thanks.  A tired!

JMB

Offline GlacierBoats

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Re: cleaning with ammonia
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2008, 05:21:03 PM »

I'm a bit lost.  Is that a gap between the stringer(s) and the bottom panels?  Check the flatness of the aft half of the hull's bottom and chine flats ...and plane down minor humps and/or fill hollows.  A straight run will produce the best-behaved and most efficient boat.

Brian
The Great Alaskan - Professional performance - Easy to build! - https://www.glacierboats.com  ><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸><((((º>