Author Topic: Alternative Build Order  (Read 29970 times)

Offline pfithian

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Alternative Build Order
« on: February 24, 2009, 03:04:02 PM »
I will start my build here in the next few weeks, just now gathering the final supplies.  Neal's kit should arrive here sometime next week. 

But in looking around the internet and some other books, one of the questions I have developed is the order of assembly.  One good reference I found online is this one:  http://bateau2.com/content/view/49/28/ 

It seems to me that a whole lot of steps could be eliminated by assembling in the following order:

Outside Hull
- Make up transom
- Make up jig with molds
- Make up shelves and assemble with transom to jig with stringers
- Make up bow stem and 4x4 support, install on jig
- Scarf together bottom panels and place on stringers/transom on jig - upside down, then stitch together
- Install chines on bottom panels
- Install 2nd layer of forward bottom panels
- Glue up and tape outside chine to bottom joint
- Glue stringers to inside of bottom
- Scarf together 2 forward side panels, mark, trim, and install on bow, shelves and chines
- Scarf together 2 rear side panels, mark, trim, and install on shelves, chines, and transom, scarf to
- Trim side panels to chines and transom
- Shape fairbody and transom
- Biax and tape transom to bottom and transom to sides
- Tape and glass fairbody
- Tape and glass inside shelves to sides
- Glass sides and bottom
- Fair entire outside of hull
- Epoxy graphite bottom
- Paint sides
- Flip hull

Inside Hull
- Fillet and tape inside of fairbody and transom joints
- Biax reinforce stringers to bottom
- Fillet and tape inside of bottom to side joint
- Glass sides and inside of transom
- Glass inside of bottom
- Trim side panels to top of shelves
- Install shelf caps

Any thoughts?  Or am I just overthinking this?
Made It Jumbo 25
Skiffkits No. 7025 1/2009
Build Start:  3/2009
Hull Flipped: 1/31/2010
Maiden Voyage:  9/16/2011

Offline mschlechter

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2009, 03:12:59 PM »
As I read this you are assemblying the bottom on the stringers, rather then assembling the bottom/chines first and putting it aside until the jig is set up with the transom and stringers. I would question how that would work out, also glassing the inside of the bottom after attaching to the stringers would be a harder job then doing it before.

I figure Renn has built hundreds of these, not to try and out think him on the process. But, hey there, is always a first time, you never know.
Mike
Juneau, Alaska

Offline walknbob

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2009, 03:39:18 PM »
I figure Renn has built hundreds of these, not to try and out think him on the process. But, hey there, is always a first time, you never know.

I would tend to agree with what mschlecter said... but if anyone here has done something in a different order it would seem like Kiwi Les might want to weigh in on this. He's the most upside down builder I've heard of in the group... I still say it has something to do with being way down there on the bottom side of the globe  ;D
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 04:06:49 PM by walknbob »
WalknBob aka Bob Southwick - Depoe Bay OR

Offline AlasKen

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2009, 04:16:02 PM »
I think that looking at what will work for you is fine and we all do that.  I agree with Mike though, you will want to build the bottom, chine shelves and glass the inside before putting together the stringers.  I will also say that EVERYTIME I tried to out guess Renn and change the method or order It cost me TIME and effort.  I think think that if it was easier or quicker Renn would have done it as he was making a living at this where time was money.  I do think that some things are done in a order just because something has to come first.

I also used my jig as a table by putting a couple of sheets of CDX on it while building the bottom and scarfing.  It worked for me.  Good luck on your build.  The kit is the way to go.
Kenneth Dodson
Crystal Dawn
24' Jumbo

Offline walknbob

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2009, 04:21:45 PM »
The kit is the way to go.

I will certainly second that. If you are located where one of Neal's kits is cost effective it is well worth the money. The time it saves, the quality and precision of the materials, and avoiding costly mistakes (even if you only screw up a few of the key components and have to re-do) is money and time well spent. I attribute a lot of the success of our J24 to having started with Neal's hull kit.
WalknBob aka Bob Southwick - Depoe Bay OR

Offline funhouse

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2009, 05:55:08 PM »
yes

Offline walknbob

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2009, 08:11:09 PM »
yes

Thank you Bruce for that definitive stance... Bravo!
WalknBob aka Bob Southwick - Depoe Bay OR

Offline pfithian

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2009, 05:00:45 AM »
Good input, I certainly cannot discount the experience of Renn and those here that have done a build.  Renn has given all of us a great gift by writing down his knowledge for all of us to absorb.  Kudos to Neal also for providing the service of making up the kits.  I am really looking forward to the build, as my wife and I are now empty nesters and I enjoy working on stuff like this outside of my real job!

But I have looked at a lot of boat plans and construction techniques, it seems that most of the other plans I have looked at leave glassing for the very last step.  I think it would be a whole lot easier to assemble the panels before any glassing is done, getting the fit just right.  The Bateau link that I listed is their way, they also have a lot of experience in this and in fact reference a Tolman design.

I also believe the bond strength of epoxy and glass to wood will be far superior to adhesion of glass/epoxy to each other.  I am willing to try it.  The worst that can happen is that I take down the bottom and build it up per Renn's procedure.
Made It Jumbo 25
Skiffkits No. 7025 1/2009
Build Start:  3/2009
Hull Flipped: 1/31/2010
Maiden Voyage:  9/16/2011

Offline Lyle

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2009, 05:49:22 AM »
Think about the chines being fitted to an upsidedown bottom, and getting their alignment right across the bottom. When I splined and glued them up I laid a half dozen or so 2x4's across the hull and screwed the chines right onto them ensuring the were in the same plane. By building upsidedown the stringers will intersect this plane so you will have to use another method of alignment but it can be done.
  Enjoy and keep us posted on how it works out.
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Offline gmclain

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2009, 05:59:56 AM »
Good luck sounds like you have a plan. Each person is different in the way they see things working the best for them. I do agree with Lyle that setup of the chine is realitively easy when building as Renn suggest.
Glenn

Offline pfithian

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2009, 06:01:25 AM »
Good point, Lyle.  I think this would be easy to handle with a few alignment blocks that would hold this angle on the outside whilst the epoxy sets.  I would also have to make up a few A-frames to keep the bottom angle correct, I would not want to rely on just the transom and the stringer angles to get the bottom angle right.
Made It Jumbo 25
Skiffkits No. 7025 1/2009
Build Start:  3/2009
Hull Flipped: 1/31/2010
Maiden Voyage:  9/16/2011

Offline kchace

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2009, 07:31:19 AM »
Good input, I certainly cannot discount the experience of Renn and those here that have done a build.  Renn has given all of us a great gift by writing down his knowledge for all of us to absorb.  Kudos to Neal also for providing the service of making up the kits.  I am really looking forward to the build, as my wife and I are now empty nesters and I enjoy working on stuff like this outside of my real job!

But I have looked at a lot of boat plans and construction techniques, it seems that most of the other plans I have looked at leave glassing for the very last step.  I think it would be a whole lot easier to assemble the panels before any glassing is done, getting the fit just right.  The Bateau link that I listed is their way, they also have a lot of experience in this and in fact reference a Tolman design.

I also believe the bond strength of epoxy and glass to wood will be far superior to adhesion of glass/epoxy to each other.  I am willing to try it.  The worst that can happen is that I take down the bottom and build it up per Renn's procedure.

  In regards to the way "others" do it, there are a number of techniques that Renn does differently and in some cases (at least) he explains why. I remember in one of them he says something like "If you do it this way, you'll be out fishing while others are still sanding."
  I will tell you right now that trying to glass the bottom *around* the stringers will take a lot longer because you will have to cut and fit pieces in a way that will simply eat up time. Plus, doing it first allows you to do it with full sheets of glass across the bottom which will aways be stronger. Lyle also has a very good point about trying to fit the chines on upside down. It is not at ALL easy to get the chines straight and flat. The ability to work on them 'rightside up' and attach flat boards across the entire bottom to help line things up is a big plus.

  Ken
Ken Chace
The Lucky C
25' Jumbo

Offline pfithian

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2009, 09:10:45 AM »
Ken, you make an excellent point that I had not considered.

I went back and read again the Bateau link, one thing that I misssed is that they require complete removal of stringers, etc before glassing the bottom in one piece.  So I don't see how the alternate build order that I listed could possibly save any time or effort.  I'll build the bottom up in the recommended way.

But the side panels, would it make sense to glass the inside of these after the hull is assembled and flipped?  I think I saw one build on the site where it was done that way.  It seems to me it would be much more difficult to bend these if the inside is glassed.
Made It Jumbo 25
Skiffkits No. 7025 1/2009
Build Start:  3/2009
Hull Flipped: 1/31/2010
Maiden Voyage:  9/16/2011

Offline mschlechter

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2009, 09:29:55 AM »
Ken, you make an excellent point that I had not considered.

I went back and read again the Bateau link, one thing that I misssed is that they require complete removal of stringers, etc before glassing the bottom in one piece.  So I don't see how the alternate build order that I listed could possibly save any time or effort.  I'll build the bottom up in the recommended way.

But the side panels, would it make sense to glass the inside of these after the hull is assembled and flipped?  I think I saw one build on the site where it was done that way.  It seems to me it would be much more difficult to bend these if the inside is glassed.

Glass the side first! They are fine to bend with glass, you are over thinking, just build it! Listen to Renn. I think the effort to glass the inside of the sides after would be harder then the effort involved in bending them.
Mike
Juneau, Alaska

Offline AlasKen

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2009, 09:31:53 AM »

But the side panels, would it make sense to glass the inside of these after the hull is assembled and flipped?  I think I saw one build on the site where it was done that way.  It seems to me it would be much more difficult to bend these if the inside is glassed.

In my opinion it is a lot easier to glass flat, long panels where you can stand up and walk around the panels.  It also strengthens the inside scarf joints.  If I was to do it over I would take extra care to try and fiberglass every surface possible while flat and on saw horses.  It is a lot easier to get a good glass job with out runs and dry spots when the panel is flat.  The amount of time it takes is also about half.  This is assuming of course that you are new to boat building.  For this novice glassing flat surfaces where you could lay out the fabric dray and smooth out wrinkles and then add the epoxy resin was easy.  When working on the vertical I was more likely to get runs and wrinkles that required extra sanding and fairing.  Of course you may be a better craftsman than I.  
Kenneth Dodson
Crystal Dawn
24' Jumbo