Author Topic: Alternative Build Order  (Read 29970 times)

Offline Ed C

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #75 on: February 08, 2012, 06:45:57 PM »
Dave please take this in the spirit it is intended. I love your posts and look forward to them. You crack me up. I was in the trades for 45 years. I was a carpenter for 40 years I guess I still am. You are what we referred to in the trade as a butcher.
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I really doubt anybody could ever tell on your finished boat if your jig was 1/2 inch out of square.

The boat might not know it, but I would. There is no reason for a jig to be out of square, unless you can't read a tape. If you can't read a tape square it up with plywood, like Anthony did in his video.

Offline kiwi les

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #76 on: February 08, 2012, 07:19:05 PM »
Having built boats for over 30 yrs now, the one thing that I did learn was to build straight and true using a spirit level and string lines. There is nothing worse than having a wine (twist) in the hull. Not to mention having a piece of mind knowing that it is true, the boat will run true and straight and have no strange tendencies like porpasing, or screwing off to one side running down waves. It is not hard to set up the formers straight and level from the word go. Set up with reasonable height so you can work underneath. I did a lot of my build while the hull was upside down. Might as well make yourself comfy doing it!

kiwi les

Offline pfithian

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #77 on: February 09, 2012, 03:16:37 AM »
I used the wood I-Beams because I felt it was the best way to insure a straight, square jig.  Which results in a straight, square boat. 

The cost for the right jig is almost nothing compared to the final value of the boat, but the wrong jig layout can convert all of your work investment into a boat that is not straight.
Made It Jumbo 25
Skiffkits No. 7025 1/2009
Build Start:  3/2009
Hull Flipped: 1/31/2010
Maiden Voyage:  9/16/2011

Offline David Nolan

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #78 on: February 09, 2012, 05:54:34 AM »
Dave please take this in the spirit it is intended. I love your posts and look forward to them. You crack me up. I was in the trades for 45 years. I was a carpenter for 40 years I guess I still am. You are what we referred to in the trade as a butcher.
Quote
I really doubt anybody could ever tell on your finished boat if your jig was 1/2 inch out of square.

The boat might not know it, but I would. There is no reason for a jig to be out of square, unless you can't read a tape. If you can't read a tape square it up with plywood, like Anthony did in his video.

Renn used to cut his bowstems and shape them with a hatchet.  Its in the book.  I agree 100%.   Wheres the cleaver.  Renn says  "epoxy will fill the gaps, just as long as its close enuf you cant throw a dead cat thru the joint"

no harm...


Offline luk diver

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #79 on: February 10, 2012, 04:35:26 AM »
 YUP, we're talking ying & yang guys. Have to say there are some beautiful Tolmans being built and that's great. However IF you are building a 'workboat' instead of a yacht a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g is on the table. That includes roughing demensions, bow-stems (we used a chainsaw on part of ours but didn't have the heart to send Renn the picture), slathering epoxy where it wouldn't be seen, painting via 'spray' only becuase we didn't need anything but a 'ten foot finish', launching with a partial boat to capture the season (no cuddy interior, splashwell, deck paint, etc. etc.......). 'Build fast and fish Sooner' has the reward of using the boat instead of wasting (IMO) any more of our too short 24,000-days on this big blue ball in space. B & B

Offline pfithian

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #80 on: March 28, 2012, 10:53:54 AM »
Here's a recap of the process, slight changes from earlier versions in this post:

Outside of hull - inverted
1) Assemble jig
2) Assemble transom
3) Scarf together bottom panels and shelves
4) Assemble bow stem, stringer Station 6 support, and transom horse on jig
5) Place stringers, shelves, and transom on horses and molds and cut limbers in stringers.  Adjust bow stem as necessary.  
6) Make up inverted molds to support bottom panels as needed
7) Place bottom panels on stringers and transom, screw bottoms into inverted molds for support, stitch bottom keel joint together
8) Stitch down bow panels
9) Glue inside of bottom to stringers and transom
10) Install angled shelf sections for Euro transom if using this option
11) Install 2nd layer of forward bottom panels
12) Install chines on bottom panels
13) Remove inverted bottom molds, hang side panels
14) Shaping/Faring
15) Fillet/taping/glassing outside of hull
16) Install spray rails
17)  Graphite bottom


Inside of hull after flipping
1) Tape and glass transom to bottom/side joints
2) Biax reinforce stringers
3) Tape and glass bottom/chine/side joint
4) Fillet and biax bow stem to side joint
5) Glass inside side panels
6) Glass inside bottom panels
7) Complete interior build out

I developed this for the following reasons:

a)  It provides a primary bond between the stringers and the bottom panels
b)  You get one continuous, fused fiberglass/epoxy skin on the inside and outside
c)  The bottom conforms better to the stringers without forcing it into position
d)  It is easier to handle one bottom section instead of the bottom assembly
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 02:21:15 PM by pfithian »
Made It Jumbo 25
Skiffkits No. 7025 1/2009
Build Start:  3/2009
Hull Flipped: 1/31/2010
Maiden Voyage:  9/16/2011

Offline David Nolan

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #81 on: June 25, 2012, 10:03:44 AM »


YUP, we're talking ying & yang guys. Have to say there are some beautiful Tolmans being built and that's great. However IF you are building a 'workboat' instead of a yacht a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g is on the table. That includes roughing demensions, bow-stems (we used a chainsaw on part of ours but didn't have the heart to send Renn the picture), slathering epoxy where it wouldn't be seen, painting via 'spray' only becuase we didn't need anything but a 'ten foot finish', launching with a partial boat to capture the season (no cuddy interior, splashwell, deck paint, etc. etc.......). 'Build fast and fish Sooner' has the reward of using the boat instead of wasting (IMO) any more of our too short 24,000-days on this big blue ball in space. B & B

(we used a chainsaw on part of ours but didn't have the heart to send Renn the picture) - BAHAHAHAHAHAHA    this was worth the re-read.....

Offline hiplainsdrifter

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #82 on: February 13, 2014, 05:06:57 PM »
I realize I'm dredging up an old thread here, but I thought these questions would be better organized to include them here.  I can start a new topic if someone thinks it better...

pfithian--  I've got a widebody in my garage, and I'm using your alternative build order.  From your list above, I cleared step 8.  I've got a couple of questions going forward.

9) Glue inside of bottom to stringers and transom
10) Install angled shelf sections for Euro transom if using this option
11) Install 2nd layer of forward bottom panels  <<---- What did you have holding the 1st layer of bottom panels together while you did this?  Did you "tack weld" with epoxy and then remove the stiches, or did you do a full seam of epoxy in the 1st layer?
12) Install chines on bottom panels
13) Remove inverted bottom molds, hang side panels <<---- How did you attach your side panels until you were able to fillet/tape/glass?  I'm worried that there won't be enough places to structurally attach them, since at this point the chines are still just stitched to the bottom.
14) Shaping/Faring
15) Fillet/taping/glassing outside of hull

Thanks very much for any help you can give!  I'm kind of addressing this to pfithian since I know he's gone down this road, but of course I'm interested in any thoughts people are willing to share.

Travis

Offline pfithian

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2014, 08:33:54 AM »
Hi Travis,

Welcome to the "Other Side"!  Glad to hear you've decided to tackle this Alternative Build Order.

I have attached a picture of the bow with second layer of the forward bottom on it.  The first layer was stitched together and glued to the stem, as well as a bit of tape holding the keel sections together.

To get a robust attachment of the chines to the bottom, I stitched them together and then crawled underneath and filled the gap between the bottom and the chine with epoxy/wood flour.  After this set up, the chines are secure.  I did the side to chine joint in a similar manner, crawling underneath and filling the gap with epoxy/wood flour while the panels were stitched.

After this sets up, you can fair, tape, and glass the entire bottom/chine/side portions.

Good luck, post pictures!
Made It Jumbo 25
Skiffkits No. 7025 1/2009
Build Start:  3/2009
Hull Flipped: 1/31/2010
Maiden Voyage:  9/16/2011

Offline hiplainsdrifter

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #84 on: February 16, 2014, 10:35:25 AM »
Thanks a lot for the clarification.  I'm away from the boat for now, but as soon as I get back to it I'll let you know how this works out.

Thanks again,

Travis

Offline Surfrat81

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #85 on: May 20, 2018, 06:05:10 AM »
MoPoxy and fairing have led me to believe that glassing EVERYTHING first makes things quick and easy...and don'tforget to fill the weave while flat...then tape it together after assembly...

Offline larspa

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #86 on: May 21, 2018, 09:37:09 AM »
Re. ...jigs being 1/2 inch out of square.

 I am the last person good enough to get precise measurements consistently. However, one lesson I learned on an earlier boat build and which was definitely reinforced on this Jumbo, is that mistakes or sloppy measurements can be cumulative.  A measurement off by an 8th can grow to 3/16th which can grow to 1/4th and then you find yourself off by 1/2 inch and wonder, "How the heck did that happen!"   So every time I get lazy and say, "Off by a 8th isn't a big deal,  I'll just let it go", it frequently comes home to roost as they say.  Not saying this happens all the time, nor happens to a lot of builders...just my experience.  :o   :-[

te
Jumbo 24' launched Sept 2022

Offline pfithian

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2021, 12:25:40 PM »
A long time since this thread has been updated.  This will be the 10th year of using Made It, there have been no issues with hull strength using this build technique.

Here's a fun thread on THT, note he used a similar build order.  He just flipped, and is making rapid progress on a simple skiff of his own design.  See https://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/1125788-simple-skiff-7.html
Made It Jumbo 25
Skiffkits No. 7025 1/2009
Build Start:  3/2009
Hull Flipped: 1/31/2010
Maiden Voyage:  9/16/2011