Author Topic: Alternative Build Order  (Read 29970 times)

Offline kchace

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2009, 09:37:05 AM »
  Don't know which Ken you're referring to, but it's ok. I actually like this kind of debate. In fact just last night I was commenting to my wife that every time we get a new builder they bring new ideas. Nothing wrong with that. I mean, no boat or method is perfect and everyone brings their own experiences and skills to it. As far as easier, faster, better is concerned I have my opinions and voiced them. In the end, one has to build the way they think is best, even if its not easier faster better either in reality or in somebody else's opinion. Its their boat and only the builder of THAT boat has to be satisfied with what they did.

  Sorry for rambling...

  Hey Paul, get building! :^)

  Ken
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Offline kiwi les

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2009, 09:39:54 AM »
I have mentioned before, in that if I was to do another build, I would not glass as Renn suggests, rather than do it when hull is flipped - saves material, and probably just as quick. You would also end up with a cleaner job. AS you know, I already have my gunnel's and deck on, and I have glassed them, bring the glass HALFWAY UP THE SIDES. It will be a simple matter of when the hull is turned, to complete the glassing programme as per sked. It was then that I realised that it would be easier to glass the whole bottom and chine flats at the same time, simple because when the tapes go down on these joints, half of the area is covered anyway. I have left off the side supports until I have flipped and I know where my inboard is going to sit. They will be part of the truss to support it, when I have myself sorted in that that department.

les

Offline pfithian

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2009, 10:12:31 AM »

  Hey Paul, get building! :^)

  Ken

Well, I will get building here pretty soon.  The kit is being delivered to our shop tomorrow, but I have to leave for our Florida plant Sunday and will be working out of there for the next two weeks.  It's too cold here right now to work in my garage anyway.  So far, I have:
- Obtained the pair of 24' I-Joists for the jig
- Recieved some epoxy tools from Jamestown
- Ordered a few tools and supplies that I did not have from Harbor Freight
- Lined up the 30 gal No Blush Epoxy and fillers from Progressive
- Lined up glass from US Composites.  I'm going with the 50" 10 oz cloth to do the bottom like so many have suggested

Hoping to flip the hull by the end of April!

E, I really appreciate your view on my alternative build order!
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 10:22:27 AM by pfithian »
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Build Start:  3/2009
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Maiden Voyage:  9/16/2011

Offline tolman_paul

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2009, 10:28:16 AM »
Good input, I certainly cannot discount the experience of Renn and those here that have done a build.  Renn has given all of us a great gift by writing down his knowledge for all of us to absorb.  Kudos to Neal also for providing the service of making up the kits.  I am really looking forward to the build, as my wife and I are now empty nesters and I enjoy working on stuff like this outside of my real job!

But I have looked at a lot of boat plans and construction techniques, it seems that most of the other plans I have looked at leave glassing for the very last step.  I think it would be a whole lot easier to assemble the panels before any glassing is done, getting the fit just right.  The Bateau link that I listed is their way, they also have a lot of experience in this and in fact reference a Tolman design.

I also believe the bond strength of epoxy and glass to wood will be far superior to adhesion of glass/epoxy to each other.  I am willing to try it.  The worst that can happen is that I take down the bottom and build it up per Renn's procedure.

The thing with most other plans is that the company that designed the boat didn't build enough of them to perfect the construction techniques.  They might not have even built a prototype to verify the boat can be built to the plans.  As has been said by others, Renn wrote the book after having built many Tolman skiffs, and he provides the techniques he developed to built the boats as efficiently as possible in terms of labour and materials.  In the case of my widebody I'd venture to say I had not more than 10% scrap of the many sheets of plywood I purchased.

As far as chaning the buil sequence to make the boat "stronger" I just don't buy that.  The tolman is more than strong enough for even the most hard core user.  I don't know if you've seen the pic of the Tolman that hit the buoy at ~25 knots, but it certainly shows that the hull didn't delaminate nor the stringers pop off dispite a mighty hit.  I don't know how old or used that skiff was, but I'd venture to say it had seen plenty of trips over at least 10 years.  The folks in Homer use their Tolmans alot, and don't baby them.

So change your build sequence if you must, but realize you will likely come to the conclusion afterwords that you just added time to your build and un-needed complexity. 

Offline kchace

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2009, 10:50:20 AM »
Good point Paul T.

  Hey guys, for those who missed this, its a good read of how tough these boats are:

https://fishyfish.com/boards/index.php?topic=410.0

  Ken
Ken Chace
The Lucky C
25' Jumbo

Offline pfithian

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2009, 11:20:35 AM »
Well, I guess I never have thought there was any lack of strength in the Tolman.  The only thing that I pointed out, which I don't think anyone can disagree with, is that  a wood/wood bond is stronger than a bond between two glassed surfaces.  

Once I found out about Tolman's on a Bartender post on THT in December (Ken C, thanks for informing me about these!), I was more interested in them the more I looked.  And I do agree that a lot of the other designs that may be available are really only exist as artists renderings.  Do we have any information on how many Tolman's have been actually built?  I think Renn mentions 100 or so in his book, maybe Neal can chime in with how many total kits, plans, and designs that he has sold.

The way I look at it, my alternative suggestion elminates nearly all sanding of glassed surfaces during the hull build, so I can't see how it would add more time or effort.

Anyway, I think this should be my last post on this until I get my hands on the wood that Neal made for me, and I'll take pictures that Steve can post so you guys can look at how it goes.
Made It Jumbo 25
Skiffkits No. 7025 1/2009
Build Start:  3/2009
Hull Flipped: 1/31/2010
Maiden Voyage:  9/16/2011

Offline Spokaloo

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2009, 02:28:16 PM »
Sometimes Eric's computer doesn't update threads in a way he understands.

E
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 04:58:10 PM by Spokaloo »

Offline walknbob

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2009, 04:37:54 PM »
To Whomever deleted my last post:

E

There are only two people in this forum who could do that. Myself and SteveOh. I am certain it wasn't me. Given all the inflammatory posts in the bilge in the past I find it hard to believe Steve would ever conceive to do that here... on purpose at least. I made my first mistake a few days ago and stated so... it had to do with a post by Alasken.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 05:07:53 PM by walknbob »
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Offline Spokaloo

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2009, 04:39:47 PM »
Disregard.

E
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 04:58:25 PM by Spokaloo »

Offline tolman_paul

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2009, 05:23:39 PM »
Just one last point, yes a wood to glass joint should be stronger than a glass to glass joint assuming the resin is fully cured before glassing on top of glass.

But, if the glass to glass joint is properly prepped by sanding and cleaning, and the joint is designed with sufficient glass overlap, then it just isn't an issue.  I'd say the many tolmans built and in use for well over a decade have proven the glass schedule is sufficient for the loads that will be imposed upon the hull.  That and many of the critical joints are backed up with mechanical fastening.

If one doesn't sand and clean fully cured resin before glassing over it, then yes you run the very real risk of delamination.  So, sand and clean! 

Offline sinned

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2009, 07:06:10 PM »
pfithian - i hate to be blunt, but you are not going to build a better mousetrap. many people, both simpler and craftier than you have built these boats. guys who thought they were being clever caused themselves a lot of grief in the end when their shortcut turned into a long cut.

i admire your thinking about things. you HAVE to do that to plan ahead the wole way through.

the number of tolman's built is in the hundreds, if not closer to thousands. the population here is a small representation of the entire population.

the boat as you see in the book is the result of EXTENSIVE testing and tweaking of the design and build process. renn may not have a fancy degree from somewhere like westlawn marine academy, but he has truly engineered the hull.

you will not get the same hull shape building it right side up. it will not be as strong. strength of wood-wood and glass-wood glue joints are trivial compared to the inherent strength of the boat due to its geometry induced be springing the panels into the required shape. 

will you make a boat- sure. i will look very much like a tolman. it might function like a tolman. but its not going to be as strong because your plywood is not working the way it was intended by the design. it would be spanning between internal boat structure like the bow, frames and transom. there are no frames in the traditional sense. it would be very much like a conventional stick built boat. like that tolman knock off that built our east that was 'augmented' with traditional methods.

the boat that spokaloo shows you in the pictures that it relies HEAVILY on the internal structure- the frames, double transoms, egg crate bottom structure. that does not exist in a tolman. and if you load it all in there, you are penalizing yourself with added unnecessary weight.

the boat as renn designed is a folded plate structure. its kind of hard to explain with a post.  think how much work/force you have to do to get the 2 front bow laminations to bend around to make the bow shape. you have locked in their shape, and all the FORCE to get them that way. with the glue.

think how flimsy flat sheet metal is, and how much stronger it is once you give it some shape. add in some creases or folds and what that then can do.

as much as you think its going to help you do a better job fiber glassing, you will be fighting gravity trying to get things aligned and set.

dennis






« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 07:08:54 PM by sinned »

Offline Lyle

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2009, 08:13:48 PM »
In reference to some of the comments regarding "horsing "the hull down to the strigers, I'd like to share my recent experience in doing so on a 21'4' Widebody.

 When I glued the bottom to stringers,the only horsing consisted of me climbing up on the bottom and shooting in the screws as specified in book. My weight was more than enough to get the bottom to lie tight to the stringers. It was a non event. I figured it was the accuracy of the building jig and placement of transom,gunnels,stringers  and bowstem that ensured a faired hull.

 How many times has anyone fastened a not so flat piece of sheathing to a frame or floor joist or laid a deck board that was bowed or crowned? Done everyday as a matter of course. Seems to me these things take more effort than it did to get the hull down right .

If the frame is right it'll come out fine.

There is only one way to settle all this.

Phithian will have to build his boat his way and also build Spokaloos boat for him at the same time using Renn's method.Sort of like a clinical trial. Neal,send another kit! :D
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Offline KenB

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2009, 08:32:13 PM »
OK so this post is from the guy who wanted to skip the epoxy and laminate with PL in order to keep the costs down. Even did some PL scarfs to test the water. I got a little bent out of shape when I posted to the old yahoo email group and had 15 guys write back "build it like the book says," I even pulled a little of that "well I think different" stuff. In the end, once I starting making saw dust, I realized maybe decided that those guys were not some pack of angry internet trolls banging on some ideological mantra;  they were just folks who were trying to save me from myself. They were people, who when they were in the planing stages where as I writing from, had also had their own ideas about how to "improve" on the design and had either headed the advice or learned the hard way. I thought it was a little draconian, but I got building anyways.

After a few months building but also following the yahoo emails, THEN I got it. There are some design aspects you have leeway on with a tolman, some you don't.  Simple as that.  There are a LOT of Glen L, bateau, THT, wooden boat forum, etc boat design blowhards out there. Tolman folks are just not that way. They are practical, supportive, and totally interested in trying to help, as opposed to being "right" or winning some hydrodynamic argument.  Ever single post in this thread is motivated by someone trying to help  you out, just thought I clarify that.

Go make some sawdust!  And I know your kit is on the way, but there is no reason you can't get started on the saw horses or the jig. Those sawhorses are a pleasure to make... convinced me this renn guy was on to something good. Maybe try improving on the saw horses before messing with the boat design, and I think you might do yourself a favor. That was my experience.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 08:42:55 PM by KenB »
best,
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- Dave Nolan (RIP)

Offline walknbob

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2009, 08:35:42 PM »
I will start my build here in the next few weeks, just now gathering the final supplies.  Neal's kit should arrive here sometime next week. 
But in looking around the internet and some other books, one of the questions I have developed is the order of assembly. 


Hey WTF ?!

I have completed, launched and put 900 miles on my J24 in it's first season. It is totally awesome compared to the other boats I have owned. But is the first boat I have ever built. Until contemplating building this one I had never really given much time to researching how other boats were built. Having spent a fair amount of time in Renn's presence talking boats I have total confidence in his opinion on building the various Tolmans. However, that is not to say improvements on the process are not possible... for whatever reason or for whatever intended purpose. It's not like changing the design of the hull. That, in my mind, is what defines a Tolman. Not so much in which sequence it was constructed. I have developed a deep respect for the hull design and its seaworthiness. For its intended purpose I can't imagine another boat, for it's size, and owner builder ease, that could compare. Hell even for a production boat in this size at this horsepower. The hull flare and transom deadrise makes this a boat of surprising seaworthiness.

If pfithian has a different process in mind without changing the design then WTF? Let him be the guinea pig and prove or disprove it. All of us who have completed a build and especially those who have not yet ought to be saying hey give it a try. It will be a great report for future builders.

So far many of us have voiced their reservations, I am sure he has evaluated them. Personally I am very interested to hear how it turns out... The Beddoe bow was a new interpretation (albeit by accident) and it was endorsed by Renn as being a good modification that he would incorporate were he to build another. So I say let the build begin!
WalknBob aka Bob Southwick - Depoe Bay OR

Offline KenB

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Re: Alternative Build Order
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2009, 08:39:57 PM »
What bob said.

I just wanted to make it clear that unlike wooden boat forum or THT where people will discuss the wood preservation value of antifreeze for 6 pages and take personal pot shots over latex versus oil paint, I have found the commentary on this site to be a little more practical. 

I wonder what Dave Nolan would say.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 08:42:12 PM by KenB »
best,
KenB

"HOW CHEAPLY CAN A TOLMAN SKIFF BE BUILT AND JUST HOW  MUCH IS SACRIFICED IF COST IS THE PRIME MOVER?"
- Bruce Armstrong   

"I can tell you that either a nice BFT or a big YFT is an absolute riot on a Tolman. The boat is so light it's like the old man and the sea..."
- Dave Nolan (RIP)