Author Topic: High build primer instead of a second coat of epoxy on 10oz?  (Read 599 times)

Offline KenB

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High build primer instead of a second coat of epoxy on 10oz?
« on: December 11, 2022, 09:54:12 AM »
So the book is pretty straightforward about doing a second coat of epoxy over 10oz cloth, to 'fill the weave.'  (page 65/66)

I was just flipping through wooden boat, and saw a blurb about using 'high build primer' or faring compound instead (photo below).  Has anyone tried this? Im giving it a go, will report back on results.
- I used awlgrip  (D3002 and D8002) for the sides and graphite/epoxy for the bottom. Very expensive...
- I've used jamestown totalfare before, great stuff. A little pricey, but worth it given the time it saves:
https://bit.ly/3UJblnn
- I've used the jamestown highbuild primer, good stuff.
- Both faring compound and high build primer need to be covered with an epoxy-based primer. And don't use the poly-based faring compounds (e.g. bondo-style, where you have the small tube of catalyst)... ever.

* I am not looking for a 'yacht-like finish', rather, just need something to make the paint stick. I will sand with 120 grit per the awlgrip manual, but just to get a surface for the primer to stick to.... which is what happened to my decks on another boat. I think.

 
best,
KenB

"HOW CHEAPLY CAN A TOLMAN SKIFF BE BUILT AND JUST HOW  MUCH IS SACRIFICED IF COST IS THE PRIME MOVER?"
- Bruce Armstrong   

"I can tell you that either a nice BFT or a big YFT is an absolute riot on a Tolman. The boat is so light it's like the old man and the sea..."
- Dave Nolan (RIP)

Offline Lyle

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Re: High build primer instead of a second coat of epoxy on 10oz?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2022, 05:51:47 PM »
I used a couple gals of Petit high build primer as filler on xynole polyester ( a bit coarser than 10 oz cloth). It worked fine- though about 3 coats to fill weave.

 Above waterline have used regular oil primer with talc added- just like the Pettit high build.

 Best by far though was a home brew fairing mix in the following proportion
2 glass spheres (white)
1 cabosil
2 talc
1 50/50 mix wood flour and spheres
Additional talc if a bit of extra stiffness was needed.
Add to mixed resin to a spackle like consistency.

Filled weave in 1 coat.

I was actually mixing 32 oz batches resin or so at a time. Spread with knife or squeegee. No sag on vertical surfaces. Sanded easier that any other mix I tried.
 Ended up premixing all the powders in advance. Added to mixed resin as needed.

I'll probably never use straight resin again after the wetout coat.
Remain in neutral and move on to the next target
29.5 Seabright Skiff. Start Sep2018
21'4 Widebody. Class of 2009
17'6 Kayak 2013
18' Swampscott Dory 2012
16' River Runner Strip Canoe1996
19' Strip Canoe 1995

Offline KenB

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Re: High build primer instead of a second coat of epoxy on 10oz?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2022, 11:06:55 PM »
Fuck that sounds about right. Thanks lyle.

3 coats is horse shit and I would throw a nutty at petit, but your home brew fixes my conniptions.

Talc! All the 'profit oriented' epoxy teams have to disclose this on their MSDS pdfs. we shall see who complies.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 11:40:07 PM by KenB »
best,
KenB

"HOW CHEAPLY CAN A TOLMAN SKIFF BE BUILT AND JUST HOW  MUCH IS SACRIFICED IF COST IS THE PRIME MOVER?"
- Bruce Armstrong   

"I can tell you that either a nice BFT or a big YFT is an absolute riot on a Tolman. The boat is so light it's like the old man and the sea..."
- Dave Nolan (RIP)

Offline cj8mule

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Re: High build primer instead of a second coat of epoxy on 10oz?
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2022, 02:42:09 PM »
I've used microballons to fill the weave before.  Actually on 3 boats now.   

Worked great for me, but you should probably do a light coat of epoxy over the whole boat when finished.  I didn't do that on the green Jumbo I built in 2016.  I haven't noticed any ill effects though.  The boat I'm currently building got a few coats of epoxy filler primer and is about as tough a finish I've used.

--dave
Jumbo 27' started July, 2016, flipped Feb, 2017, launched Sept, 2017

Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. – Ronald Reagan

Offline jallii

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Re: High build primer instead of a second coat of epoxy on 10oz?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2022, 03:08:34 PM »
Why would you use the word "instead"? Why not simply add the fairing compound on top of the epoxy that fills the glass cloth pattern. I see no reason to reduce the amount of epoxy you use. One of the reasons you use glass on top of the plywood is to ensure a thicker layer of epoxy. The mount of glass Renn uses is so small that the glass plays only a minor part in creating stiffnes in the hull structure, but filling the glass with epoxy creates a thicker layer of epoxy to protect the wood from moisture.

I can understand the need to reduce sanding epoxy. The best way to reduce sanding epoxy is to NOT sand at all.

This is easiest to achieve by planning a time table for covering the hull with epoxy and read the technical documentation of the epoxy you use. If you fill in the next layer within the "OPEN TIME" for your epoxy brand, it forms a chemical bond to the epoxy layer below. Sanding for adhesion is only needed if you miss the open timeframe. 

The other way to avoid sanding epoxy is to use a scraper instead of sandpaper.  Again the key is in timing. Dont even try to get a smooth surface with pure epoxy. Just scrape the worst blobs / mistakes while the epoxy is still easy to work on, but not fully hardened and fill on epoxy based fairing compound and start the whole sanding process on that. So you only sand fairing compound thats made from the same epoxy with mixed in stuff to make it easier to work with, but you apply it within the open timeframe to ensure bonding without sanding the underlaying pure epoxy layer.

So with proper timing everything is much easier. The key is knowing the time frame and planning. So read the manufacturers technical documentation. I willpost an example of a major Asian manufacturer, Gurit.  Their AMPRO product is designed to have a 4 day overcoating timewindow. That means that NO SANDING is needed to ensure bonding if you work within that time frame. Their information also has some mixing info to modify epoxy for fairing compound use. I am sure you have similar things available in USA.

First picture is Ampro instruction for coating.
Second picture is Ampro instruction for using epoxy AS FAIRING compound:
« Last Edit: December 21, 2022, 04:27:48 AM by jallii »
I like to find out and really understand things. A perfectionist, curious mind cannot stop learning, and picks up many things. I don't claim to be an expert. I'm not an engineer or a chemist by training. I make mistakes. If I manage to make something understandable I am happy.

IF you want to build a boat make sure you follow designers instruction. Do your homework and be safe.

Offline KenB

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Re: High build primer instead of a second coat of epoxy on 10oz?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2022, 08:40:58 AM »
I did two coats of the awlgrip high build, light sanding with 120 grit on a long board, then awlgrip 545 primer. On the one hand, this does not fill the weave nor replace missing volume (the way faring compound does), but I did end up pretty smooth without sanding or 'cutting' into the glass/epoxy. Jallii, excellent point about 'avoid sanding epoxy all together.'  When I started building 10 years ago, my goal was to not sand the fiberglass, and 'filling the weave' or getting to a flat surface was a huge waste of time, energy and money. At that time, I was using latex house paint. I remember when Jim Shula came down and inspected my '40 foot finish.' But after a few years with any kind of abrasion (e.g. deck, gunnels bumping into the dock), the latex stuff does rub off. For my seacraft, because I plan to eventually sell it, I decided to try awlgrip. The seacraft guys were very enthusiastic about 2 part paint (e.g. awlgrip, alex seal, signature seal... which seems to be out of business), and after fishing a season with it, I am impressed. Its tough.

I wanted the hardness of autopaint, without all the sanding, which I got: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE9UP2NbIVU
(I was inspired to do my boot strap the same way they did the roof panels, but with many few steps!)

Kind of off topic, but I've been meeting builders around here (cape cod, boston) and there does seem to be a lot less of the 'build fast go fishing' versus 'this is the correct way to do things, nevermind if the extra time, cost, and effort seems designed by marketing professionals to preclude home builders.' I have always felt that stitch and glue boats should not look like poly boats... they get to gelgoat into a mold, then use professional tools to buff and sand to a mirror finish. To put it bluntly, I have always felt that the Tolman ethos stood in contrast to the 'wooden boat nerds.' Utility over beauty. Practicality over cost. And here I am 10 years laters banging on a thread about faring compound! If you do go the 'faring compound' route, be sure to use the epoxy faring compound, and it helps to use brand new spreaders. Old spreads with chips or nicks on their edges lead to extra rounds of sanding/faring.

Jallii! I am planning to bottom paint with west marine bottom shield directly on the 120 grit sanded epoxy/graphite bottom. Thoughts? I see no point in primer, since the bottom paint is supposed to rub off in the first place, and the graphite/epoxy is already better than any 'epoxy barrier coat.' e.g. I don't care about chemical bond, and the wood is already sealed, since no gelcoat or poly. Pretty sure the bottom shield rubbed off the umhw strakes within weeks, last time.
best,
KenB

"HOW CHEAPLY CAN A TOLMAN SKIFF BE BUILT AND JUST HOW  MUCH IS SACRIFICED IF COST IS THE PRIME MOVER?"
- Bruce Armstrong   

"I can tell you that either a nice BFT or a big YFT is an absolute riot on a Tolman. The boat is so light it's like the old man and the sea..."
- Dave Nolan (RIP)

Offline KenB

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Re: High build primer instead of a second coat of epoxy on 10oz?
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2022, 08:57:09 AM »
The ampro looks to be around $200/gallon for the 4.2kg kit? Including shipping, but I couldn't find any US suppliers.

Another 15 gallons of SC110 from epoxyking.net just arrived... $56/gallon, shipping included. No blush!
best,
KenB

"HOW CHEAPLY CAN A TOLMAN SKIFF BE BUILT AND JUST HOW  MUCH IS SACRIFICED IF COST IS THE PRIME MOVER?"
- Bruce Armstrong   

"I can tell you that either a nice BFT or a big YFT is an absolute riot on a Tolman. The boat is so light it's like the old man and the sea..."
- Dave Nolan (RIP)

Offline jallii

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Re: High build primer instead of a second coat of epoxy on 10oz?
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2022, 03:28:04 PM »
I am not trying to advertise for Ampro.... My point was about the open time for chemical bond. All proper epoxy manyfacturers should have similar info available for their product. Open time of course depends on both the chemistry used and the surrounding conditions for the hardening process. If you have a decent product and a decent manufacturer that wants people to by their product, there is no understandable reason to keep this kind of information hidden. So what ever the epoxy brand and manufacturer they should give out this info, or no professional will buy their product. Probably most DIY builders dont know enough about epoxy to ask for the technical data, and read it, and as a consequence blame the product for their own mistake due to ignorance. Epoxy is one of the major plastic type used world wide in a ultra wide variety of applications. There are many ways to make epoxy chemistry happen and modify both end result and the process. So the only way is to follow the epoxy manufacturer data thats available in the technical dodumentation. ==> So witch ever brand you use, dig out the info and use it in a smart way.

It would be pretty much impossible to make recommendations for any American brands, as I am in Europe and Finland. We dont have Jamestown, Totalboat or Awlgrip or most of the products you and others comment on, atleast with the same name/ brand. In a few cases like with West Systems epoxy product line its sold here also even with the same brand name.  How much do you know about Finnish, Italian, French or Polish brand names and products? So...  ==> I have no idea if, a West Marine product for painting the bottom of your boat against making it becoming a movable greenhouse is good or bad....  BUT.... I know a little about our products and about different types of solutions to painting the bottom.  Here are a few comments... I googled your words: "west marine bottom shield" and found a lot of instructional videos by this manufacturer. This is of course good, as it tells me they seem to know what they are doing and seem to care about the result. Looks like a reputable brand. I watched one guy explaining that this paint is epoxy with some copper compounds mixed in thet get released during some longer perion. That its epoxy based works well with epoxy based bottom. Thats good. As its used underwater, the epoxy weak point against UV radiation does not matter as very little UV gets down there. The effect is based on the toxisity of copper to algae, and in general microscopic living things that migth want to use your boat bottom as a support structure. Copper has been used for a long time against algae and moss growth. I remember reading about it being a practice in the old days to put copper wire on the roof to spare the owner from cleaning the roof from growth. Very small amounts of copper compounds get released from the wire and the roof stays clean. So copper is an old solution. From the video I got the impression that they have figured out a particularly effective way to do it. ====> So I think this product will probably work. How good is it in comparison to other solutions? I dont know. Looks like a reasonable solution for you. Only negative side I can think of besides releasing copper to the water is the potential negative effects copper has on the underwater aluminium parts of your engine. If you put both copper and aluminium to a solution that contains salts you get galvanic corrosion. So remember to keep the sacrificial Zink pieces on your engine in good working order. 

BUT...

At least here in Finland, there is a growing awareness of environmental issues. Is it really a good idea to release stuff to the water that is harmfull to atleast some microscopic marine life? Here we have tens of thousands of small lakes that are quite shallow, and smaller lakes are more vulnerable than bigger ones. Is it a big problem? Enough people think so, and therefore its prohibited to paint your boat bottom with any paint thats contains biosides. There are several allowed options available for use in seawater. Hempel-company has developed a non-bioside solution thats is generally considered very good. I have seen even some real tests by proper authorities that confirm that it really works. Better than all the alternatives.

Here is the link: https://www.hempel.com/products/hempels-silic-one-77450

Then of course there is the possibility of not using any paint at all... Here are some links from TUKES...
(our safety and chemicals agency https://tukes.fi/en/chemicals/biocides

https://youtu.be/RhVM04wWWls
https://youtu.be/clu0HjC0-Sc
https://youtu.be/awcG4XIDdP8
https://youtu.be/FmprsO0-FAs

I guess all four would be alternative to chemicals. Hope this was usefull.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 04:32:31 AM by jallii »
I like to find out and really understand things. A perfectionist, curious mind cannot stop learning, and picks up many things. I don't claim to be an expert. I'm not an engineer or a chemist by training. I make mistakes. If I manage to make something understandable I am happy.

IF you want to build a boat make sure you follow designers instruction. Do your homework and be safe.

Offline KenB

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Re: High build primer instead of a second coat of epoxy on 10oz?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2022, 09:30:36 AM »
Hi Jalliii,

I have found that MSDS (materials data safety sheet) is the best way to see what is in a product. In the US, this is the safety data that is required for all chemical products that lists the amount/ratio of all components, obviously for safety reasons. Usually you can download from the website, and for sure they will send it to you (they must), if you ask for "MDSD for product#???" Once you have the components, you can google the names or CAS#.

My question was about bottom paint bonding directly to epoxy... the 'DIY how to bottom paint your boat' literature is for gelcoat/poly boats, which suffer from 'blistering' if water permeates into the poly, below the paint. This is why all boat paint says 'above water line only.' So the correct product for priming a poly boat is "epoxy barrier coat."  But since we Tolman builders use a graphite/epoxy final coat, we don't need the barrier part of 'below water line primer.'  My question was whether you think 'bottom shield' will stick to epoxy/graphite after 120 grit... but I think you kind of answered that, so thanks! I can report that the 'bottom shield' from 10 years ago stuck to the places where I roughed up the epoxy, but did not stick to the epoxy that was not sanded (e.g. shiny, smooth), and also did not stick to either 5200 or the UHMW strakes, but I was not sure about the new stuff. I will try it.

Fiberglass site dot com guide "Book" that I can't find on their website (https://fiberglasssite.com/) any more... pretty good! too big to attach as PDF:
https://bit.ly/3FTAeaN

MSDS for SC110 epoxy:
MSDS for West Marine: (its made by petit)
MSDS for MAS resin:


best,
KenB

"HOW CHEAPLY CAN A TOLMAN SKIFF BE BUILT AND JUST HOW  MUCH IS SACRIFICED IF COST IS THE PRIME MOVER?"
- Bruce Armstrong   

"I can tell you that either a nice BFT or a big YFT is an absolute riot on a Tolman. The boat is so light it's like the old man and the sea..."
- Dave Nolan (RIP)

Offline jallii

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Re: High build primer instead of a second coat of epoxy on 10oz?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2023, 03:09:50 AM »
I had a look at those MSDS. The SC110 and MAS are both mixtures of different types of Resins. My guess is that they are not comming from the original manufacturer, but from some middleman who buyes the resins in bulk quantities, then makes a mixture and sells it with their own brand.  In both the main ingredient is Bisphenol A resin, wich is the most common resin type. They have then added a Novolac type resin (+ other stuff with MAS) in order to modify the properties. The problem with this is that you have several chemical reactions happening simultaneously that have to be balanced. In practice it means that its impossible to change the hardener unless its spesifically made for this mixture, and the combined open time etc... is unknown. ==> you are left at the mercy of the middleman.

Will comment other things later...
I like to find out and really understand things. A perfectionist, curious mind cannot stop learning, and picks up many things. I don't claim to be an expert. I'm not an engineer or a chemist by training. I make mistakes. If I manage to make something understandable I am happy.

IF you want to build a boat make sure you follow designers instruction. Do your homework and be safe.

Offline jallii

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Re: High build primer instead of a second coat of epoxy on 10oz?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2023, 11:11:31 AM »
The bottom shield is what I suspected... it has some limestone and kaolin clay that has some copper powder/dust mixed in so that it dissolves slowly. Everything is held together with some thinned down epoxy. Dont be fooled with the idea that because it contains epoxy that it somehow adds to the waterproofing of the plywood. It wont. Epoxy will stick to the bottom strongly, but once the powders have dissolved into water, you are left with a porous layer of epoxy. Its as watertigth as a sponge as just about all these kind of bottom paints do. After a few rounds of bottompaint you need to scrape / sand the porous layers of leftover epoxy in order to be able to have the next layer of bottom pain stick to the bottom.  ==> So I suggest you ask the company that makes it before committing to this solution the following:

1. How long will the antifouling effect last? In other words, how often do you need to reapply this product?
2. How many layers of this product can you stack on top of each other?  This will give you the timetable for re-sanding the bottom.
3. Ask about the toxisity of the product for reapplying and sanding /sandblasting the bottom for you and the environment.
4. Ask about health precautions for these procedures (masks, gloves,...  environment and groundwater protection... and waste disposal).

I am not familiar with US regulations but at least here there is a strong sence of the need to always consider the whole lifespan of a product. Thats especially important with products that are harmfull or toxic.

About the main issue... I am afraid those safetysheets provide some info about contents, but will not answer the main question. How long does it take to cure the epoxy to a point after witch its too late to rely on chemical bond? As both products you mentioned are mixtures of several chemistries, the only way to change the curing time chemically is by changing both hardeners in the hardener mix (and they have to be in exact proportions), so you are on the mercy of the product supplier. If you use a product like the West System you have several hardener options to choose from. This means that you can adjust the opentime to be suitable for your timetable.

Here is a proper guide to epoxywork... https://www.westsystem.com/wp-content/uploads/GougeonBook-061205-1.pdf
I have posted the link into the library section of the forum a long time ago.

The stuff i have talked about involving the open time. is on pages 31-33.  The open time depends mainly on the chemistry used and temperature. You cannot change the curing time by adding more hardener, you just end up with uncured epoxy. But you can change the time by changing the chemistry (choosing a different hardener if such is available) or by changing the temperature. Cooling down the workplase slows down the process. Warming up makes the process faster.  The main thing is to PLAN the process of laminating the hull, so that you have the time to put on the next layer without sanding. In order to plan timetables, you need the curing time. If you cannot get it from the manufacturer, you can make a test with what you got. Renns instruction on estimating when the epoxy is still able to form chemical bonds is good enough for DIY use. If you still can use your fingernail to make a dent, its still OK to add the next layer. You just need to know how long it takes from the mixing untill its too late, and have the proper safety margin to finish your layer in time. (and keep the temperature stable ).   



Then the other matter... and the picture I posted about long term permeability studies by Cougen brothers.  They have done studies about epoxy permeability and the results are simple. Good quality epoxy is way better that bad quality and polyester, and you need a thick enough layer of epoxy to do the trick of keeping the water out suffuciently. Thats why you need a thick enough layer of epoxy on top of the plywood before you add any antifouling.

I will explain this later with some links.. sorry gotta go again.


I like to find out and really understand things. A perfectionist, curious mind cannot stop learning, and picks up many things. I don't claim to be an expert. I'm not an engineer or a chemist by training. I make mistakes. If I manage to make something understandable I am happy.

IF you want to build a boat make sure you follow designers instruction. Do your homework and be safe.

Offline KenB

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Re: High build primer instead of a second coat of epoxy on 10oz?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2023, 07:01:20 AM »
Thanks Jallii!  That all makes sense. I have no reservations about painting west marine 'bottom shield' directly over the graphite/epoxy bottom after sanding with 120, dusting, and wiping with acetone.

I personally hate the 5:1 epoxies... as outlined in the Book (p.47) Renn also prefers the 2:1 (Sys3), e.g. does not blush, and 2:1 is more forgiving of 'user pouring errors.' If you do use the west system stuff or any 5:1 I think you pretty much have to buy the pumps or use a scale. And wipe that amine blush off! I actually wipe with acetone any way, when I remember to...

I think the fingernail check is really important... if you are going to attach things more than a few weeks apart, it is really important to leave some unexposed/unepoxied wood to get a good bond. I think that's why we leave the screws in the stringers; the stringer/bottom panel bond is to cured epoxy on the panel face.
best,
KenB

"HOW CHEAPLY CAN A TOLMAN SKIFF BE BUILT AND JUST HOW  MUCH IS SACRIFICED IF COST IS THE PRIME MOVER?"
- Bruce Armstrong   

"I can tell you that either a nice BFT or a big YFT is an absolute riot on a Tolman. The boat is so light it's like the old man and the sea..."
- Dave Nolan (RIP)