Tolmann Tips -Jig On the order of 4,000-4500 for my Widebody Hull. I disagree strongly with bruce's estimate of 400-500 for a building jig. You only need two long straight boards - 16 footers. You may have to dig thru the bin to get them, but you should be able to get em You can then complete the basic box and use scraps and two by fours, true it up and check it. Shore it up with 2X4's and scrap lumber. 50 bucks (TOPS) for the jig and you don't need expensive casters to wheel the thing around. Why do you want to roll your 21 foot boat around like a go cart anyway. When you are done with the jig, you can even rip the jig pieces and use them for the spray rails.. thats what I did... When its time to flip, you might have to wheel it out. Use some old lawnmower wheels or make something up for the 25 ft ride. I used some crap wood and some wheels off a lawn spreader. Put the bow of the hull on the back of the old Mazda beater truck on some foam, roped it to the tie down, screwed my landing gear to the back of the jig (after raising it up) - lowered it and out we went. After we flipped it, we carried the hull over back to the driveway, and used one of the piece of the jig to lay the keep on, Since the keel is UHMW, it slid right down the track of the plywood. The other one went into spray rails and was nice and dry from being under the boat for a year. -Resorcinol Actually - Its very good glue. We just get lazy with that gap filling non shrinking epoxy that's nice bc you don't have to fit wood together tightly. I can think of one area that would be easy to use it on and that is the plywood decking to the shelves.... its flat against flat... you could use it for laminating the plywood doubler to the transom... and a few other places... if you really want to. But you are going to need 15 gallons anyway to build a standard with waste and all - unless you've got Renns skills. I have epoxy drips on my asphalt driveway still... (no matter - it needs to be broken up and wil be gone soon anyway). Epoxy driveways and epoxy cups you mix in and epoxy that sets up too fast is expensive. I dare say you save a bit of epoxy by buying the slowest hardener - as long as you don't have to build outside - like I did. You have to buy epoxy anyway and the cost savings of using that .14 worth of glue can't be that much. I think I'd save it for use on something else though. Its good glue though... -Keeping water out of transom wood On another boat I built, I was worried about this happening. What I did, and what worked, was to put a sacrificial plate of wood on the inside and outside of the transom. I cut, routered, coated with epoxy, and painted just like the boat, but rather than installing the motor plates permanently,I made (epoxy coated) holes to match the motor mount holes and then used 3M-101 caulk to "glue" the plates to the transom. The transom itself was of course protected (epoxy, paint) anyway, and the 101 caulk allows you to remove and replace the motor plates. After curing, it cuts with a putty knife. Once bolted in it doesn't matter if the cault is there or not, but I felt better about preventing water from getting trapped between the disposable plates and the transom itself. I've also thought along the lines of using an aluminum, or aluminum insert type of transom (or some such thing) that would allow through-holes without risk of damage etc. I think the temporary and disposable plate idea is probably easier and cheaper, and easy to make new again whenever you need to. Brian PS: The motor plates I made were plywood ... shouldn't have just said 'wood'. -Measurements Page 103 of the book. Y1 measurement of 7 7/16" should be 8 3/8 " -Epoxy I've been through the "price versus perceived-quality" question many times with epoxy. One thing that the epoxy experts that I have run into told me, including my chemical engineer father, is that the answer is YES. There's only a very small handful of companies making epoxy resins. BUT something he and the others said is that epoxy is LOT like metal alloys. You can buy aluminum that's soft as butter or hard and brittle and the only difference is a very minute little bit of a few other elements blended into it when it's molten. How it's treated after that stage has an effect also, but the idea's the same. The physical properties of the resin/hardener combination when cured vary all over the map and the primary differences come from the additives. I think the really interesting question that I would like to see is a)what are the important properties that we should look at for our intended use, and b) how can we test those properties ourselves? I imagine that there is certainly a way that we can do this for ourselves and answer some of these questions with a bit more finality. I imagine also that things like adhesion, flexibility, water proofness, etc. would be possibilities. In the past, I've used WEST and System Three. WEST because the boat designer told me to use that, and at the time (first boat ever), I was afraid to try something new. Since then, I've used only S3, because the cost +shipping numbers came out right for me(Oregon) and the 'experts' claim it's pretty good stuff for boat building (I've spoken personally with Kern Hendricks, president/owner of S3, several times too.) In any case, does anyone know more about what could be tested and how we could go about doing it? Some brands like MAS and RAKA and some others keep coming up in conversation and it'd be nice to know how suitable they are for larger (20'+) boats that take a beating ... Elmer's will just about work for a little skiff, but I like *BIG* boats and want something fit and proper for larger boats that see hard commercial or ocean use. -Fasteners The rules for stainless steel are simple. If it's exposed to air and rated (316 or better) for marine use, then fine. Use it and check it once in awhile, but it'll last pretty well. Nothing lasts forever. HOWEVER, if the stainless steel is *not* exposed to air, e.g. fasteners buried in wood and epoxy in a Tolman, then it will be subject to crevice corrosion. Two things happen. The threads and metal start disappearing and the fastener doesn't do any good (so why have it?). That's the good thing. The bad thing is that when metal 'corrodes', it is oxidizing. Oxidized metal is always spongier and larger than fresh metal. The buried stainless will swell and can crack joints and work its way out. If buried deep enough and in a strong enough structure, you may never know and will believe all is well. Note that the solutions are simple though. If you can, don't leave fasteners in the boat unless they are necessary, and if they are necessary leave them accessible and replaceable and exposed to air and/or flowing water. If you must leave them in due to construction methodologies, then go with the best compromise ... use a stainless that corrodes so slowly that you'll be senile before anything's gone wrong enough to notice. There are only two easily available types that corrode slowly enough: Silicon Bronze, and Monel. Check the prices and you'll know which to buy ... Silicon Bronze (from Jamestown probably.) BTW, this applies to inside/outside the boat and above/below the waterline, e.g. everywhere. -Laying out patterns as for the patterns, I cannot see why a builder would want to pay for the patterns... it is just a matter of carefully measuring off the lines for the offsets and using a batten to make fair lines.. I used a long trim piece of hardwood of some type that was also fairly limber... it was like 16 feet long... measuring and drawing the lines yourself also gets you in the mood and thinking about how the parts come together... in my opinion... I don't see any utility in patterns for the stringers, since you measure and draw the line on the board, then cut it out close to the required angle with your skill saw... and use your planer, sander, whatever to make all the diffferent angles make a fair transition... same applies for the transom... bowstem, etc.. the only reason I can see where patterns would be very helpful, would be if you were going to build multiple hulls.... Renn has patterns made for each part.... he takes them down and transfers the lines to the new stock... btw - Renn always answered every email I ever sent him, as well a a few letters and he put a lot of details in his responses... very good guy... I even spoke to him on the phone twice and he went and took down one of his patterns and remeasured where I had a question - prior to putting the saw to the bottom panel where it makes the curve... since I am on this subject... Renns tip of using nails to transfer the lines works OK... I added something that made the difference to me... when you finally get the pattern down - say for the shelves... you need to transfer it to your stock (doug fir)... he indicates to put down nails head tapped into the wood so that when you put the doug fir on top and align, the nail heads pick stick into the DF board. I used nails and alternated using one and two nails with the heads on the lines, and then taped down the shaft of the nail so none come undone when you lay and aign the DF board on them, then hit the board hard and you have your lines transferred... If I could do it again I would make my drywell full height and make the shorter cutout and mount the motor maybe two inches off center - as it is now - when I get the kicker motor I think I will have to move the main (Honda), I have been good so I think I will get a kicker motor early summer... prolly never use it and Boat US towing comes out off shore 25 miles.... I have been 21 miles in the Tolman and felt comfortable... this year I have two friends that insist they will go further offshore with me and are competent so we will see... -General tips davidtanya2001 wrote: Most of what I learned I already posted somewhere. A few more tips, in no particular order, just thinking about TolmansÉ Tools ? I found one of those little grinding wheels valuable. In many places its helpful to use the sheetrock screws. Once in a while - if you are like me ? one will break. A vise grip pliers is helpful to get it out ? but if it is too far buried and you cant grip it you might want to grind it out. If you don't - just buy lots of sandpaper because when you hit one of these its bye bye sandpaper and expensive rotary hook-pile sanding wheelÉÉ About finishing the hull. I used the roll and tip method to paint. It worked for me because I mainly fish. And I already told you about two incidents where I poked a hole ? one with a trailer light and some helpful Korean men that pushed the boat out in front of me while backing down the trailerÉ and the other from a big piece of concrete and re-rod my anchor hung up on and I was able to pull upÉanchors are expensiveÉ easy fixes for me ? cuz I fill, sand, and re-paint. At any rate ? you guys ? some of you, are spending a lot of time , effort, and money on high-end paints. Remember ? while working on the hull, that it is not totally done. You will have to drill holes for your tow line and painter line if you go that way ? which I think everyone does. That will make four holes in the bow section. Then ? if you have a bow platform, or anchor locker, there are two more. Don't forget the drain holes in the transom for the splash well ? which I wish I made full height. (Now I have to go back and redo it because we are going further offshore this year.) That's at least 8 holes already. If you don't make your splashwell full height, then you need to put a screw into the splashwell end cap ? from the outside into the wood. That's two moreÉ something to think about and maybe it's a silly point but once you get that glassy finish and have to poke holes into it you will understandÉ also ? once you do make the holes you need to seal up the wood for the drain holesÉ another chance to see uncured epoxy drip onto the nice paint jobÉ the Easy Poxy Primer is very thickÉso if you used the sand trick in the hull for traction and durability ? save your old nasty brushes because you won't want to spray it, and you cant roll it down into all the gritty sand..rather you poke it into itÉ > I used Renns idea of copper pipe to make a connection around the bowstem. I used 1 inch pipe sealed and buried in thickened epoxy. I felt it to make sure that there were no sharp things in there to cut my line. Even so ? I had to replace the line twice. My thought is that it is a great connection point, but not with regular line. Also- a 1 * pipe 0r maybe 1 * would make it much easier to thread the line thru it. My connection to get around the bowstem is longer though because of the extra piece of wood I have on the full keel and all the way up the bowÉ.. On the bow connectionÉ when the rope broke the second time, that and because I have a roller trailer and the boats practically leaps off itÉ.. (can you see the boat sitting in the middle of the highway)É I went and got SS aircraft cable and some crimp connections and also a couple small screw clamps and a turnbuckleÉ and made a permanent SS cable loop É. I taped up the ends and it is a no fail connection. Should have done that the first time. > Also ? because I wreck fish ? and frequently have to pay out a few feet of line, or cant the boat to hit a fresh piece ? I put a beefy cleat up o the bow to make it easy. DrainholesÉ. ? when you make up your fiberglass pipe for the drain plugÉ use fiberglass tape and THICKENED epoxyÉ unthickened epoxy will drip outÉ and also roll the thing around a few times to make sure it dries evenÉ it works greatÉ.. no worries with fiberglass ? glassed to fiberglass for the drain plugÉ 5200 works greatÉ.. it takes forever to dry and during that time if you touch it it's a huge mess and remember it sticks to practically everythingÉ the quick cure 4200 works very well and takes a day instead of a weekÉ. They both come in white or black. UHMW comes in various sizesÉ. I bought a 4 ft piece and lapped them together for my strakesÉ. If you want it pretty buy the eight foot sectionÉ I glassed my stringersÉ. I should have glassed the flat sides before I installed the bottom and flipped itÉ then I could have just done my filleting and taping instead of fighting gravityÉ I glassed the undersides of my chine shelves before they went in tooÉ should have done that for the stringersÉ Think carefully about what you want and where you want it before those stingers get into the boatÉ you can cut limbers in them once they are in the boatÉbut it AINT easy or PrettyÉÉ also ? if you are not sureÉyou may end up putting a nice SS screw thru the bottom and then find out that was a bad idea when you try to cut a limber after the factÉ screwing into an already cut limber is also badÉ looks stupid but I have not done that..and Renn warns against that anyway.. Those cheapo shop lights that look like a bullhorn make pretty decent warming devices for small pieces or to preheat something that you want to dry in a reasonable time after epoxyingÉ remember it is better to apply epoxy to a warm wood surface and let it cool while the epoxy is curingÉ. Thus sucking epoxy inÉ rather than applying epoxy to cool wood, then heating it while curingÉ cuz the air expand> and you get BUBBLES!!!!!!!!!! Eeep. > Installing the transom on the assembled jig with stringers and shelves was a bit of a pain. I made little brackets ? like a giant U and glued them around the transom to stringer mortise so I got a good Inch of bite on the stringerÉ. I was glad I did thatÉ.. If you have a lot of extra hands and a real shop maybe this is unnecessaryÉ Cabin design. I REALLY REALLY think a mock up makes a lot of sense before you build it. I built mine so I and the other drivers (Tanya is 5'2") could see over it. I also made the wide shelves foreword of the station six bulkhead because I reasoned that I would often walk around the cabin and it would be nice to walk a Yellowfin around the boat without dropping the anchorÉ that ? and because Renn said to. > In practice ? the kids and people love to sit up there, and access is easy. But nobody ever goes up the starboard side because 1 ? there is the helm on the starboard sideÉ and 2 the VHF antenna. It would be an overboard drill waiting to happen. SO I wish I had made the port side walkaround 6 inches vice 8, and the starboard side 4 inches vice 8, it would give us six more extra inches of room in the cabin and to hell if its slightly off centerÉ > 8 inches is fine to get around, actually more than necessaryÉ I figured I'd need extra space for when its cold and I have my Viking boots onÉ six inches would have worked fine thoÉ > > I have never personally surfed thru all 700 some messagesÉ. But I be there is a lot of repeatÉ if there were some way to organize it by area of boatÉ.tools, cutting out partsÉassemblyÉ.. paintsÉ. It might helpÉ. The problem is that the learning curve is so steep that by the time you finish your boat you know so much more and wish you could do it all over againÉ. I also learned that mistakes can be fixed quickly, but if you make a cut too deep and take off too much wood, you do lose time in filling. I have a couple mistakes ? one was where the skillsaw took off too much on one side of the shelfÉ.. it's a bit of a flat spot not easily fixed and it wasn'tÉ you can still see itÉ. The other one is at the chine shelve transition but its not noticeable in the water anyway I do love the idea of Bruces add on spray shelves forwardÉ. Seems like it'd further knock down the sprayÉ. Then againÉthe kids scream and wail when the spray comes aboard at times and they go to the stern to be in itÉ. > The end. -Steering Wheels whip the s/s wheel (it takes 90' of line) with half-hitches and soak with varnish and you have good purchase and no cold feel....looks salty too....bruce Stephen Dampier wrote: > Dave, Cool, I was wondering if hydraulic was over kill or not. And I'd already decided on NFB. Sign me up for a stainless wheel. Don't like the plastic ones, although I must say that on one of those 40 something degree mornings, that stainless will be awfully dingdang cold. Steve - I used a teleflex rotary helm.. the NFB (no feed back helm) it is nice because the engine torque and waves etc does not effect the handling... not a hydraulic... very unneccessary.. motor turns just fine - wasy and no problem... wait until you are sure of your helm location before you order your cable.. and with that... a little long is ok... too short is a non starter.... If I could go back I'd pay the 160 for a cool real boat steering wheel - just for class.... i bought the SS wheel... please dont buy a plastic one unless you need a real small wheel.. i bought a 16 inch wheel... -Flotation http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tolmanskiff/files/Boats%20That%20Float/ steve: when building my 20' i read a wonderful article about floatation and the calculations needed to determine the amount of floatation needed...Arthur Edmunds wrote "Let's Build Boats That Float" in Boatbuilder Magazine....early 90's.....it has all the formulas and such....glad to send it to you for review.....he recommends (and i followed his recommendation) cutting foam to fit rather than the messy, poisonous two-part stuff. My boat has more foam under the decks and in the collision chamber than needed to float, not counting partial floatation from gas tanks, ice chests attached within the boat and the wood of the boat itself.......i didn't get so worried about putting foam high up in the boat....if this thing flips, i'm not going to worry about the boat.....just the passengers......i've been in some crappy seas and flipping has never been a concern....let me know.....bruce lowpine wrote: > howdy, > > Here I go with the questions again..... > Renn warns about completely sealing the deck structure for fear of the deck blowing apart in hot weather, and allowing for ventalation. It seems as though the crash bulkhead is completely taped and sealed, wouldn't the same hold true for this area of the boat. Is this going overboard, or should this be a real concern? Regarding the crash bulkhead, has anyone used that pourable 2 part foam to fill that area? Any thoughts on using that 2part foam? would the foam reduce the 'threat' of the crash bulkhead blowing apart? > On a simular note, has anyone used any type of floatation below the deck? Any thoughts on floatation that is not covered in Renn's book. My understanding is that you want floatation higher up in the boat. If it's to low, and the boat gets swamped, there is a higher chance of rollover. Keeping the floatation high keeps the boat in an upright position if you get swamped. So I was thinking, (single engine 28" cutout transom layout) when building the corner braces located in the aft horn section, rather than having the smallish triangular shape, go with more of a rectangular shape that will extend up to the full width/heigth drywell. Then continue boxing in the corner sections. In effect create 2 floatation boxes, one on each side of the drywell. Steve - I made my bow crash bulklhead a mite bigger and used block foam. I used some old block foam I had available that was kicking around. The foam had to be cut and chiseled down to fit in that area with all those changing angles - I did the best i could and closed it on up and sealed it. There was little bits of foam everywhere... It is the only sealed place I have on the boat. I thought about making a little pencil hole for the reason you mention. I never did. If you want it water tight but able to vent - You could install a PVC pipe with cap somewhere up front. I never did this either tho. I also worried about the heat but my crash bulkhead is under a cabin so the sun does not beat on it and I think the rather large wood bulkhead ply wood can expand a bit as the heat increasees.... later on - I actually purchased two gallons of the foam from SYS III. After that was done I got a series of emails in quick succession from Tim Davis, Renn, and Kirn Davis of System three. Renn says he did it once and would never do it again. Tim Davis told me the same thing - it sucks up water. The manufacturer told me eventually closed cell foam gets breaks in it and sucks up some water. It was after i had ordered the foam.. that I had to replace the deck on my aluminum Alumacraft....it was cheapass plywood unsealed that had that carpet on it (holds water). It was an open boat with removable seat pedestald and had foam under the plywood decks. When I cut that wood out - the foam was shot into the hull and the foam actually supported the decks in soome places and helped support it in others.. it looked like small circles of foam that later expanded... at any rate - the foam was Very Heavy.. more akin to cement than foam... and I could mash down on it with my foot and watch water come out. Renn, Tim, and Kirn were all right. Use that foam stuff if you must but where it cant get wet - esp standing water (bilges). So now i have two gallons of two part foam with no home.... its fun to watch expand tho... I reasoned it would be good to put under the deck... figuring that if the hull was ever smashed.. the foam would keep us up.. Renn wrote ""What are you planning to hit that would hole your boat" and also told me only one boat was ever holed and then after hitting something (I forget) and the hole was in the crash bulkhead area. The crash bulkhead with or without foam would only let so much water in .... foam probably makes no difference tho it does at first make you feel better... If you do foam it - the two part would be easier and fill all the gaps - but you would have to figure out a way to let the excess come up thru the top of the bulkhead and then seal it up... if I ever need to open up my crash bulkhead I will put the foam in there - because i already paid for it... thinking about it now... if you deck your boat - you have made three seperate compartments... assuming you have a cabin and that bulkead at or around station six... thats three big ass compartments filled with air.... I dont know what you'd have to do to puncture the hull aft of stations six but youd have three compartments... If you use a screw out plate back under the drywell you can always air them out... the flotation boxs sound ok.. why not make the whole area under the drywell a big floation area with screw out deck plates...?? They say the number one reason small boats sink is taking water over the transom... with a small cutout and a full length drywell... and a decked boat - I dont think you have much to worry about... I'd hate to see the wave you have to worry about coming over the bow and cabin!!!!! I have a heavy motor and wide cutout and have filled the drywell and it works... but I am going to make it higher and if i get the deck in this year.... i won't put foam under it.... I hope it self bails but if it doesnt I will still cut holes to make it bail while moving that can also be plugged with the normal drain plug... I think with a deck you could fill the boat all day and it would never sink below a certain level... If you are concerned about getting run over where your boat will be splintered like PT 109 then definately buy the two part foam... I'm telling you it gets wet and heavy...nasty too... at least the stuff Alumacraft used... -Trailers steve: trailer thoughts.....my single axle trailer (no brakes) weights 940....with spare, four bunks and side guides......empty hull, 1200lbs.......3500# rating, so i'm within specs with full tank and a weeks supply of corona and peanut butter......i also bought a HD hand cart so i can push the thing into its parking slot and pull it around my yard....something you can't do with a dual axle trailer....they bind.....the single axle is easy to manuver.....i've probably got 8-10K on the trailer and am about to consider new tires for the trip to canada this summer......once a year i take the trailer back to the maker and have him check it all...electical, bearings, the works.....I don't trust bearing buddies and never want to be standing beside the freeway with a fried wheel bearing.....i've got a spare hub with the bearings greased and installed just in case......bruce guldam wrote: > I'm trying to make my final decision on what trailer to get and how > it's configured. I get differing opinions from the folks who want to > sell me a trailer and a huge price range. > > What I'm thinking of is a single axle trailer rated for a gross > weight of 3500 lbs. The trailer weighs around 900 lbs so that > gives a rigged and gas payload of 2600 lbs. I've estimated a fully > loaded Jumbo of being somewhere in the 2300lb range. Am I > cutting it close or should I really consider a 5000lb gross weight > trailer? > > I want stainless disc brakes, four bunks, load guides, spare > tire,etc. Anything I'm leaving out? > > Some folks have been trying to sell me 5000 lb, dual axle trailers > that seem over kill to me. Steve - I got a Load Rite Galvanized roller trailer. It was a 20' model rated for 2660 lbs... and weighs only 560 lbs... (a few more for the tongue extension). The trailer was more than adequate for the light Tolman Hull... even tho mine is surely heavier than Renns... as most home builders' Tolmans probably are... I would definately not get a dual axle. Why? You surely dont need it and the singles turn easier... I manuever mine in the back yard at year end and its tight getting thru the carport and back around the house.. would be hard to do with a dual.. The trailer I bought is 77" wide between the wheel wells. This is great - because I can drop the roller supports down to their lowest level and the boat rides between the wheel wells rather than on top of it. It keeps the CG low... I trailer every time I launch.. sometimes by myself.. and it is a piece of cake. I have the bearing buddies and have never had a problem - just keep them full of grease. I've used them on the last trailer with no problems for 7 years... You will most likely have to add another roller at the wishbone... the Tolman is deep and broad in the bow and it will want to hit without the roller... the roller also provides support up front. If you dont have your dealer do it ist wasy to do anyway... I imagine ytou want to set up your trailer anyway in keeping with the do-it- yourself mentality of the Tolman gang... Having had bunks and rollers - I would definately buy a roller trailer. The one I bought has sixteen rollers and plus the bow one i added. They are spaced evenly on either side of the stingers and it is fine support for my boat. If I lived where i had to trailer it 200 miles... like from Anchorage to Homer.. and on bumpy roads.. id get a bunk trailer. With the rollers and light boat... once i back the stern of the boat in... I can hop out - grab my already attached bow line, and whoosh the boat is in the water... I used to have to always bury the axles in the salt water with the alum boat and bunks cuz it did not want to slide off readily. I suppose you could cover your bunks with UHMW... I have heard that it is slick and works great for that too... The lights are always a pain in the ass. I have to raise my lights up out of the water... the first set is long gone having trapped saltwater and they were a bloody mess... this year I want to use a PVC pipe contraption and raise the damn lights out of the water once and for all.. I paid about $1200 for the trailer with the extended tongue. It has no brakes. It does not need them...something else to worry about...s. We have a Chevy Silverado 4.8 l small 8 cyl 2WD and it pulls it like there is nothing there - same for stopping. I have had the Tolman and trailer at 65mph on the parkway at it does catch some air... they say wheelbase is important in trailering... In practice tho - it is only a few miles to the ramp. I am not sure how much heavier your hull will be tho. I like my simple little trailer. Lightweight - 580 lbs.. no brakes... rollers... simple hand winch we almost dont use except for a few inches or maybe a foot or two depending on the tide and where I stop the trailer... Also - I have the tongue jack wheel thing - no tht e$250 version.. the cheapo $40 one.... I dont often wheel the boat around but when I need to make small adjustments I just put a piece of wood under the wheel and roll it where it needs to go... I usually keep the boat in the carport... keeping the truck and car in front of the house (eeeps)... I have two sets of chocks and I attached the back chock to a piece of wood that I leave in place... so when I return the boat... the back wheels hit the chocks which are in place for a reason... It lets me know where then the boat is in the place I need it in.... sinces its about 30 some feet back there from where i am backing... I dont often have a ground guide unless Tanya comes... if the kids are with me.. they stay in the truck till everything is set... then i chock the front of the tiress... put my board under the tongue wheel... and off it comes... with the board under the little wheel... the next time i just back up close.. hop out, and wrestle the hitch onto the ball I have a large plastic trash can - with the way the boat is adjusted it is perfect - the boat is in the same place everytime, and the motor tilts down into the trash can and I can run the salt out of the motor and flush.... I pride myself in being smarter and faster at the ramp then anybody else ... and by the way - you gotta get out of there quickly or people stop to ask you about the boat....!!! Dave Load Rite has a #3100 capacity trailer, 20 roller, 77" OR 84" between wheel wells, for a 22' boat that weighs 600 lbs.... about $1375 plus or minus... You could always have somebody custom weld you one and get it plated in Platinum for the ultimate in style and corrosion protection for less than Thirty Thousand! -Slotting Steve, I slotted my shelves up to where the 1/4" ply starts for the bow, then I just stitched the rest of the shelves on. I think slot size will depend on what size your router bit is. But I will warn you that when you load those slots up with epoxy you slats will not want to go in very easily. You'll have to clamp or slide them back and forth to get them to go in. I left more room on the second batch. Steve D. --- In tolmanskiff@y..., srb wrote: Ok I am ready to slot. Pretty slow going not much time to toil about the shop these days. The question is : Why does the ref in the W/B book say to slot all the chine shelves , and then go on to say to slot only the 1/2 ply on the bottom? I would think its not necessary to slot the front part of the shelves where it will be stiched to the bottom? Was any one else confused by this? Also says to cut 3/4 strips of doorskin / my sloting tool cuts 5/8 deep slots, so should I not use 1 1/4 strips? > Steve - -Anchor Retriever Oh, I get it. I guess you have to use enough chain to counter the weight of the anchor's bottom end, right? Otherwise the anchor will tip up and slide back out? Interesting that such a simple hoop would work. I might try it... Brian Brian, the round ring version works as when you gun the outboard the anchor flukes cause the anchor to ride up and break the surface of the water... the rope/chain/anchor shaft slides thru that big circle o ring and the anchor remains afloat by the buoy.... you just pull the anchor float in and then disconnect the o ring... wrote: > > Here's the anchor puller system I mentioned. I'm going to upload a > picture if I can, but here's the web site. > > http://www.ezmarine.com/page2.html > It's the universally used anchor pulling system on the Columbia. With a round buoy float, it'll pull your anchor to the surface and hang it under the buoy while you easily retrieve it to the boat. > > I can't figure out how the round-ring version works that someone else posted...won't the anchor line slip back through? > > Brian -Windows Brian, I use the locking rubber which I buy from the local glass company. I make my own side windows from Plexyglass which fits the rubber. I have the windshield glass made up from the glass company, I just make an 1/8th inch thick pattern and take it to them ...they cut the glass etc. I use glass in front because the plexy will scratch too easy using wipers. Some use Lexan which is tough but also also can scratch. The plexy on the sides allows me to glue up the sliding windows that I use. Gary Brian Dixon wrote: > I've found suppliers of custom shaped windows, Wynne for example, that > use extruded aluminum framing. It looks nice, but I suspect the > windows with the plain rubber surround are cheaper. Where are you guys > getting windows like that? You see them on all kinds of boats here in > the GPNW, but they come on the boat...nobody knows where they came > from. Hmmm....also, what other suppliers of custom windows do you know > of or who has a large selection of premade windows that have the right > angles and what not??? > > Brian -Jumbo/Widebody and focus on the prize, ie donÕt worry about the cabin and finish too soon Tim Davis said there isnt much difference between the ride of a Wideb ody and a Jumbo. The Jumbo is a bigger boat with slightly more Vee, so I think I'd go with that. It cant be much more to build that the widebody and will still operates on a relatively small power relative to most 22 ft-ers... If you dont want or need an inner deck, a widebody is probably quicker to build and you could just put the most minimalistic cabin on her with AC Fir (non marine for cabin walls and use 4 oz cloth for the cabin walls - as Renn now indicates in the WB update... that - and screw out ports and fixed windows ...you'd be in in no time.. also - depending on your level of trim and paint finish you want...??? Whichever hull you choose... you can work and work and work on the hull all the while thinking what you are going to do to it when you flip the hull... that was one tip I could have used a year earlier... just build the hull, and figure out what is going on it after you roll it.... If you need to fish... you can build most of the hull, and finish the cabin insides later in the winter in your garage.... or add on a windshield etc later..... I'd love to have an aluminum Tolman - how much you figure it costs to build in aluminum??? the biggest factor in my humble fish-piss boat building life.. is how do you want to finish it out... If you want a seaworthy boat quickly - you can do a workboat and not worry about a glasslike spray on finish - that in my opinion - takes up a ton of time. Kinda like painting anything ...85% is prep work.... Some builders - take huge pride in their work and say its worth the time an investment to make glass like fairing job..... -Scarfing attachment John Kohnen was nice enough to post my scarfing articles on his site (http://www.boat-links.com). Here are the links to what I wrote...several years ago. Haven't re-read them in quite some time myself, so forgive me if there are errors or inaccuracies. I have more experience now...but still use the same methods. Here's some links that work. I just checked them... http://www.boat-links.com/scarf_bevels.html http://www.boat-links.com/Scarfing.html Brian -Trim/Scuppers/Bilge Pumps Not sure what you can do about trim, except when in chop or waves that may come over the stern to keep the trim forward, e.g. store gear forward and don't have crowds of people in the stern all at once. Renn's boats are pretty buoyant in the stern anyway, so his are less of a concern than many others. I don't think Renn has heard of any cases where water over the stern occurred, and I haven't heard of it with his boats. But the concept is important and should influence how you operate the boat anyway. Your outboard is heavier than specified, so keep an eye on how the boat works in those conditions and keep it in mind. Most of the swampings occur a) when the boat is stationary or moving very slowly (trolling), and b) when backing into a sea (bad seamanship.) If you're worried about it, then take a close look at your cockpit drains. I can't remember if you built them oversize, or if you built them before Renn decided to make them bigger. Might want to consider one-way scuppers too. I haven't looked for them to see them yet, but I've heard there are one-way types that use a floating ball (like a snorkel) that work pretty well. The larger the better, less prone to plugging too, but make sure you have a way of plugging from the inboard side too (standard practice.) If you're concerned about bilge pumps, then 2 is better than one, and high or extra high volume is better than low or 'adequate'. Renn's boats self-drain when at rest unless they are overloaded (sole is above DWL), but either way, I like to see a float switch on one of the bilge pumps and a manual switch on both. The float switch one will prevent the boat from filling with rainwater at the dock if you forget to unplug your scuppers and will come on automatically when underway if you are collecting water without realizing it (spray from wind and waves blowing into the boat for example...big problem in the PNW when it's windy and the tidal currents are moving.) Another nice thing in a boat is a sealed cockpit floor that prevents collection of water below the DWL. Not sure how your boat is built as far as floor sealing goes, but I know the fuel tank and foam that you have will work well enough in this case. And of course, anything you can do to keep the center of gravity low and amidships (not in the stern and not high above the waterline) is good too. As your back up of backups, a hand operated bilge pump is nice to keep in the boat (foreward/back handle type is easier than the clam- pump or bicycle-pump type.) I think a little common sense (trim, loading, timing with weather and water, operation/seamanship) and the fact that you're operating a Tolman goes a long long way unless you want to re-evaluate your bilge pump and scupper concepts. I like back- up pumps and big deck drains, and like to design-in a way to keep water where it can leave boat (usually not easy from the bow unless designed to be that way from the start.) Positive flotation and flotation that keeps the boat upright when swamped is important...haven't made final decisions for my boat yet. Got some thinking and foam design work to do yet..I think you're OK on flotation, right? Can't remember the details on yours... I think that's about it. Go fast, die young, stay pretty! NOTE: The vast majority of people survive the swamping accidents, but why have them in the first place? Wrecks your whole day! Brian > No second pump? They don't have to be submersed you know. Anybody out there know of a source of one-way scuppers? The ones with a floating ball (or other) valve that lets water out but not in? Forget Bruce! I want it for my boat! (Sorry Bruce...yusta kiddin') > Brian Brian, I'm sure you saw Renn's , the homemade ones... I had mine sewn up at the canvas store as flat tubing. Waterproof cloth sewn together on the flat. They drain great and I have grommets in the end with sein twine so I can just pull them up when in harbor or anchored. Most of the time there isn't much water at all to let out so you can just leave them up. If you forget and leave them down then very little water seeps in. They do ride at or below the waterline and this is normal on the Tolman. I have fiberglass drill tubing for the flanges. Gary Deck/Bunk comments Just a little input and answers to last weeks questions. Steve D. When I made my bunks I just laid down and made them to fit me, so they are about 5'10" with a little extra foot room under the anchor deck. I also would have made my cabin wider rather leave as wide of walkway as I did. Good hand holds are more important then a wide walk way and the extra 4 to 6 inches that could have been gained would have been nice. My most recent addition to the cuddy is a slide out shelf under the anchor deck on which my Ibook sits so I can watch DVD's while laid up waiting weather or what ever. As for traveling down the west side of Baronoff there really isn't many days a year I would want to do that but I've been lucky to catch it twice the second I only went as far as Sitka, then returned via Peril Straits, Chatam Strait a little stop in Tenekee for a soak in their hot springs and over night then home again. I try to do 2 or 3trips a year of 5-8 days, I've had company on four of these trips, the rest have been done alone. I'm really enjoying the group web site, today I had a chance to check out your construction process, Bruce, nice job, I am trying to put together some photo's to get on the site. Unfortunately I just got digital last winter so all my construction photos are old prints and I' not having very good luck with my scanner right now, but will put on a few more recent photo's as I can get to them. Rex I'll take a couple tee shirts as soon as you have them available. Also would like some of the decals if someone is selling them. Construction trick: for the stitch and sew process. I use plastic wire ties they allow for gradual one handed tightening. > Thanks again for the site. > > Bill Skill saw oil Just happen to have my Skil manual handy, for the model 77 or 77M. They recommend that you only use Skil lubricants, No. 80111 (8 oz.). I picked up a bottle at Home Depot. On a new saw, they recommend a oil change after 10 hours of initial use. The procedure is to: run the saw for 1 Min. to warm up oil, drain oil, fill with kerosene, replace plug, run for 1 Min., drain, fill with oil until oil runs out, with saw in normal (level) operating position. Install plug. How to use Widebody addendum Since I was (rightly) accused of shallow reading, I may not be the one to listen to. But what the heck... The Book covers all general technigues that will work on all the hulls. Things like scarfing, whittling down the bowstem, installing spray rails, etc are explained in the book. The addendums, for the most part cover specifics of the Widebody and the Jumbo. Most measurements for Jumbo will be in Jumbo addendum as will the WideBody measurements. You will end up switching to the WideBody addendum when you start working on the chine shelves. Cabins are in Widebody addendum, although Renn did send me some new cabin plans for the Jumbo that are to show up in the new book. I did find differences what Renn spec'd for taping of several joints and the stringers. As I recall , I went back and forth between the book and addendums and several times I just got confused. At one time I had started focusing on the Jumbo addendum and overlooked very important info that was in the Book. Go back to my postings on bowstem angle and bowstem whittling and you'll see just how confused I made myself.... Tanks/Drywell Another reason to custom design your drywell, esp if you want to put batteries under there, or a small tank, or to fish back near the transom, where all big fish go. I didn't do this and so tank concerns were an after thought. As was the motor mounting an afterthought. The main motor board height was not made to match the thru bolt holes on the motor, or the amount of room you need for a kicker. So the lower bolt holes only go thru the 1 inch of ply and ply doubler. And my kicker does not turn fully (actually it never turns). Turns out that the drywall, as built per the book, would only allow (in store bought sizes) an 18 gallon tank, and that was tight. So I got a 12 gal - which is ample. The benefit of the little tank is that I can easily move the tank, even full as (its only about 80 lbs), out of the sump I made for it, for cleaining, maintenance (haven't done this yet), or to get at the A,B, AB switch under the drywall. I could also take the tank up to dump it or clean it, and judging by whats already in there - thats a good idea. It's a plastic tank, and the gas you buy you would assume is very good grade and has no impurities. But I looked in the tank the other day and there were some things at the bottom I didn't like and have no clue what they are... But its easy to empty out and rinse it. I guess every third year.... I am not sure how you clean a perm tank or if you just don't ever do it. Shelves from _" ply Just a different approach BUT instead of 1-1/8" sub-floor we made up two 16-foot panels from 1/2" Super- Ply ($24 a sheet from Ashby Lumber in Berkeley, California and has one-side of mahogony skin) and then layed-out both doubled-up and lofted (as per Renn's plans) and cut-out one front half. Flipped it for the opposite side (mirror image) and cut it out. Remanants from sheet were plenty adeqaute? for the rear shelves (instead of demensional wood), and remains will be used for cabin or web stringers. Epoxied both 1/2" layers together last night and will scarf the front and sterns together. Probably going to glass the underside for strenght so basically done with shelves for a JUMBO. Our boat-building tent is black outside and we're going to half to expedite this project becuase weather is looking like spring in California and soon HOT. Bob Drywell / Transom My drywell is going to be as high as shelves and yes I'll extend thedrywell cap to the shelves. I figure it will make the hull stronger andI'll have the increased freeboard, which I greatly desire. I really hatehaving waves come over the transom and getting my feet wet...or worse.Beats me on measurements since the drywell will go in after I finish thecabin/wheelhouse and deck. (at Dave Nolan's suggestion, since it's easierto not have climb over the thing) Steve D. I'd also raise the drywell cap full height minus a notch for the control and steering cables... Hi Dave, your drywell height comment attracted me. I've been considering having the cap of the drywell flush with the shelves; making the deywell cap a little wider and strongly tied into the shelves. I keep going back and forth in my mind over this. On page 198 of the book Renn says: "You can increase freeboard at the sternby making the drywell as high as the gunwales. It must then extend forward enough to work the tiller." I don't have my motor at this point. The book gives the floor of the standard drywell as 18 inches wide, i.e. extends from transon forward 18 inches and at 12 degree upward slope. Do you or others have thoughts on how wide the floor of the drywell should be to provide room to work the tiller? Anyone else thinking of raising the drywell height? Thanks much, Dave Wright Tolman Adventure Article Okay, I sent the pages directly to Dave. And I've posted copies on Fishyfish. I don't have them linked from any pages, so you'll need the URL: http://www.fishyfish.com/becharof/ and the link to the Tolman OffTopic site: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/TolmanSkiffOFFTopic/lst Bottom Shaping That'll work, but it does not address the issue of fitting the edges of the plywood exactly to the changing curve of the hull.....the tighter the fit of the plywood (3/8") to the hull at all points, the greater the added strength......I cut the piece large and roughed out the bevel.....it fit too high all around.....then, with a piece of cardboard, started fitting the c/board between the plywood and the hull and where the hull stopped the c/board from sliding along the hull, I'd plane away just a bit of material....by the time the plywood fit to the desired line it was in contact with the hull all the way around the contact area......time consuming but needed very little epoxy to bond and it's an exact fit......bruce "steveoh@f..." wrote: > Ninety times? sheeesh, that's gotta be more tedious than using Renn's > methods. > > How about this: > > You get a rough cut (to the shape of your hull) piece of scrap plywood but make sure the length is larger than you need. You put this piece of scrap ply as close to the area you want to duplicate as possible. Then you take a pair of dividers (or compass with pencil end) and trace the shape of the hull onto the plywood. Cut out the plywood on the lines you just drew, lay it on top of a new larger sheet of the real plywood, then take your dividers (at the same setting) and trace around the scrap ply. Cut out the real plywood and put into place. Shouldn't this work? > steve d. > Original Message: > From: bruce armstrong funhouse@r... if you rough it to shape then slowly take material away until it fits correctly, you can get there.....I only had to take the piece in and out about 90 times to arrive at a fit....good exercise..... > guldam wrote: > I'm reading ahead in Renn's book on building the float tank at the bow and find Renn's method of finding and transfering the hull shape a bit cumbersome. Does anyone have a better method? Maybe using a set of dividers or a pantograph? Steve D. Kicker size / cabin design The kicker for a 22' Jumbo should be around 10hp, e.g. a 9.9 Honda or Yamaha 4-stroke is ideal. Lots of people like the Yamaha High Thrust. Hull speed is only around 6 knots on a 22' boat and a 10hp motor will do that just fine. If you're raising your deck, keep in mind that it is in trade for less head room in the cabin (maybe) and lower apparent side height aft. If you put a hard back cabin in, aka 'Alaskan bulkhead' with door and windows, you can have a 6" or higher sill that keeps water in the stern. In that case, the raised deck would only be aft and you'd have a choice inside the cabin. Tim Davis put tanks on either side of center on top of the floor so he could have a lowered cabin floor and tons of headroom. Most give up the headroom in trade for underfloor fuel storage under the cabin (the right place for it.) Keep in mind that many flush-floored commercial boats like Alumaweld only have 5'8" headroom in the cabin, for boats in this size range. Note also that it is recommended that headroom either be obviously low enough to cause you to duck, or for-sure high enough to not be a head banger. Ceilings that are somewhere in the middle fool people into standing 'too tall' and they end up banging their head a lot...a bummer. As Renn pointed out to me once, you shouldn't feel like a second class citizen if you need to duck to walk inside the cabin if it makes everything else in the boat correct. If your cabin will be open-back like mine, you'll likely have a floor that is flush all the way to Station #6 (I will.) In that case, the headroom issue may help you decide for or against raising the deck. I've decided to stick with the original design and just put plugs in the scuppers when not underway. I'll put the low bulkhead in at the front end of the splash well as Renn mentions in the book. That'll give you some handy storage area, prevent you from having to clean out from under the darn thing all the time, and will make the scupper plugs easily accessible. I believe Renn is raising his deck, but he's also putting in the lower bulkhead, and he may or may not put plugs in them...I'm betting he keeps them on board anyway. With the original decks, they only let water in if you have a couple of people standing in the same corner of the boat when the boat is at rest...common when fishing. The deck is self-bailing at the dock either way. For fuel cells, Renn and I both recommend custom. You can't buy a tank with baffles in them. Also, it's hard to find a commercially made tank that puts filler and vent in the place you want it. For example, if you are doing a double bulkhead at Station #6 to hide a fuel filler tube and vent to the gunnel, the most tanks have the filler and vent stand-offs too far aft...like right where you'd walk. With a custom tank, you can specify the placement and have it put right on the end of the tank (on top) so that it can be hidden under the sill to the V-berth area and will naturally feed into a double bulkhead to the gunnel. Note: Renn is also adding a saddle tank under the chine shelf on the port side, and is considering using the forward crash bulkhead area as a fuel cell...although I don't know if he's made a final decision on that one yet...he's going for max fuel and will likely take some long trips. Good mileage or not, I'd like to have 120+ gallon capacity but would normally only run 50 gallons or so in the boat...this may include 80-90 under the floor and spare tanks on board. I will likely put in the port side saddle tank too, and have it alternatively drain into the main tank and/or feed the engine directly (should there be contaminated fuel), and have it's own shut-off. Haven't decided yet. Looking at the Tolman in profile, with no keel or bottom strakes on the boat, the fairbody line is the keel line...the point of the 'V' in the hull. Technically, it runs from the point of the bow at the sheer, down the center of the stem line, and continues along the centerline to the transom...this is of the hull itself, not the keel strake. Renn uses the term to refer to where you are glassing along the centerline of the hull, inside and out, prior to adding strakes. Bracket comments from Renn I found the Emails! > > Renn's Bracket Comments: Trim is an endemic problem with virtually all Tolman skiffs, since they are so light (relative to aluminum). Thus I'd be hesitant to use a bracket unless I could somehow think up a way to put a whole lot of weight forward. And yes, the two aluminum builders here mostly put their engines on brackets. They use relatively short brackets, and their engines tilt up into a short drywell-very practical, except that what happens to the kicker? It, too, has to go onto the bracket and then you can't reach it. Kickers now come with self-start, remote controls and power tilt and trim down to 8 horse, but that's a little rich for my blood. > Stan's Jumbo has a 115 4-s on a Paralift (a long hydraulic-lift bracket). It trims fine but he has all his tankage in the bow, but he has a K Bay cabin-that is, placed amidships-and no kicker. This would be hard to accomplish with a conventional cabin. > > Sorry I can't give you a more definitive answer. > > (I then asked Renn about floatation in a bracket, his reply below) Bracket w/flotation: It's my understanding of how they work is that they start a couple of inches above the boat bottom and slant gradually upwards as their bottom progresses rearward. The thinking here is that a deep vee squats and drags a lot of ocean behind itthrough quite a wide speed range-from displacement at, say, 6 knots to fairly high into the teens. The hull then tips forward and the boat planes. The float bracket in essence holds the stern up and gets the rig on plane quicker. On full plane the bracket is out of the water, minimizing drag. > A Jumbo comes on plane at a much lower speed due to its comparatively modest deadrise (12 degrees vs. 18-21) and extremely quickly and easily due to its high power-to-weight ratio. The problem I see is that if the skiff were out of trim due to a heavy engine on a bracket, it would come on plane OK but never quite achieve optimum planing aspect. (This is what my own skiff did with a full belly tank (right around 100 gallons). A delta fin on the lower unit fixed it, however.) Walter's Jumbo has a forward cabin, a belly tank that's a little too far aft, a 115 on the transom and no kicker, and it sits in the harbor at a ridiculous stern- heavy angle. I asked him if it trimmed out OK underway, and he said it did. But I have never personally ridden in it and I didn't want to get into the fine points with him, like whether he has to use max down-trim to get it to trim out. > See what I'm driving at? There's a lot of variables, and I'm real conservative about saying a bracket will work because of the chance that somehow during the thick of decision making-and here no personal disrespect is intended-some one of these parameters is ignored and a problem is created. > ---That's it straight from the Master. Since I'm no naval architect, I think I'll stay with the Renn's standard design. Unless a previous builder has taken the arrows from pioneering a good usable bracket design for a Jumbo. > Neal