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 51 
 on: July 02, 2015, 05:58:17 PM 
Started by AlasKen - Last post by AlasKen
I ordered a set of Cook's "go to" tackle organizers http://www.cookstackle.com/index.cfm .  These are designed for bass boats to attach to the lid of a storage locker and allow bass spinners to hang upside down utilizing wasted space.  I took a Dremel tool to make the hook slots wider to handle salt water jigs.  I am pretty happy with them and they weren't real expensive.  They are basically a U channel where one leg of the U is attached to the door and a slot is cut in the other outside leg and a hole in the bottom.  The hooks go through the slot into the hole at the bottom and are pretty stationary.  Hard to explain but easy to do.  In reality you could probably accomplish something similar by screwing in a bunch of screw eyes along the top of the door.  That was my fist idea.  The earth magnet works really well.  I got the idea form someone on this site but can't remember who.  That way there is nothing to bang your shins on.  Ken

 52 
 on: July 02, 2015, 04:23:10 PM 
Started by pfithian - Last post by Dshoe
I have put up a bunch of progress shots under #greatalaskan28

 53 
 on: July 02, 2015, 04:06:29 PM 
Started by AlasKen - Last post by tolman_paul
Ken,

That looks great!  I'm starting to do some tackle organization.  I've carried two tackle boxes one in the cuddy and one in the pilothouse that basically never get used because they are so carefully stored  Huh 

What did you use for holding the jigs?  I use a 5 gal bucket, trouble is if the jigs are on the outside they get knocked off, if you're on the inside the hooks on the outside end up snagging stuff.

 54 
 on: July 02, 2015, 03:48:10 PM 
Started by AlasKen - Last post by tolman_paul
I'm not going to make any claims of what is safe and what is dangerous, someone you will have to define for yourself.

I have worked designing fire alarm and gas detection systems in the oil industry for almost 20 years now.  Some things to consider:

Propane has a lower flammability limit of 2.2% and an upper flmmability limit of 9.5% by volume.  What that means is that lets say your pilot houst has a volume of 250 cu ft (roughly 6' X 6' X 7')for the sake of discussion.  That means if you introduce a bit over 5 cu ft of propane up to a bit less than 24 cu ft of propane into that space if ignited it will burn.  That is somewhere between 1/8 and 2/3 of a gallon of propane.  Somewhere I have a video of shooting a partially full 1 pound propane bottle with a rifle, it makes a rather impressive fireball ~15' in dia, certainly large enough to fill the cabin and deck of a tolman skiff.  When shooting full bottles the gas came out under such high pressure it extinquished the nearby ignition source.  So that gives you an idea of how even a small propane bottle contains enough propane to be a significant fire risk. 

As to explosion risk, I don't have software to calculate overpesssures from various size gas clouds.  I do know in the industry we use a cloud size of five meters as generating enough over pressure to damage a structure and lead to escalation.  With the smaller volume of the Tolman skiff I would think you'd be under the threshold of blowing up the boat if it were filled with propane and ignited, but you'd have an intense flash fire.

Which gets us to the importent part, risk mitigation.  In industry the number one name of the game is keeping the genie in the bottle.  If you keep hydrocarbons contained, they won't ignite due to lack of oxygen and lack of ignition source.  In areas were leaks are feasible the electrical systems are designed to isolate sources of sparks from the atmosphere.

How does that play out on a boat?  Using small disposable cylinders will limit the amount of fuel available for a fire.  Any hoses, valves and fittings should be designed for marine propane service and they should be regularly inpsected for corrosion or leaks.  Propane has odor agents added, if you smell any leak I would immediately shut off the bottle or remove it from the appliance its hooked to.  If the bottle itself is leaking, I'd risk the littering fine and heave it overboard.

If you're really concerned about propane leaks, there are 12 vdc detectors available.  I'm not positive what technology the detectors use, but likely a catalytic bead.  The caveat with those detectors is the cat bead is a consumeable and wears out over time.  That said if it's only powered up when you are boating, it should last a long time.

Risk is a combination of the likeliness of an event and the severity of an event.  While I can't think of any cost effective feasable ways of reducing the severity of propane gas cloud ignition on one of our boats (asside from limiting the qty of propane you carry), there are many ways to reduce the likleness.

I'll leave you with a final thought.  You can opperate a safe piece of equipment dangerously, and you can opperate a dangerous piece of equipment safely. 

 55 
 on: July 02, 2015, 03:41:59 PM 
Started by AlasKen - Last post by AlasKen
Here is a photo of the tackle box in use. It is already dirty  but works great.  It makes a nice seat and the tackle is handy when needed.  The ability to just hang the jigs you remove on the door and shut it is a great safety feature with kids.  No more hooks hanging on rods when underway or when changing out gear.  It also helps when time to rinse them off.  I just open the door, give them a good freshwater rinse and close the door.  They air dry and the hooks don't stay wet and rust.   

 56 
 on: July 02, 2015, 01:35:31 PM 
Started by larspa - Last post by bullet
I also used PL but I glued the stringers to the bottom while it was still in the bottom mold. Piece of cake

 57 
 on: July 02, 2015, 01:34:22 PM 
Started by AlasKen - Last post by AlasKen
I high jacked Paul's grill thread http://www.fishyfish.com/boards/index.php?topic=3847.0 with propane discussion with my setup and use of propane.  I thought I would move it here as its own topic.  In my mind the questions include: "How safe is it?"  "What can be done to mitigate any danger?"  "What are best practices?"  Please review the grill topic to catch up if you are interested in this topic.  I tried to include some of the relevant information below.

From Paul…
Nice setup, Ken!

One question, though.  Does your propane locker have a low point vent to the outside of the boat?

Propane is dangerous stuff, heavier than air. Any compartment where it is stored should have a low point vent to the outside.  See http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Safe%20Boat%20propane%20Installation.htm

My response…
Understood and I used that link when designing.  I see a lot of examples where a tank is just in a side door cabinet in the transom.  That is also one of the reasons I elected to go with a one gallon tank as default and not a 5.  Just that much less gas in play.  While I have no desire to test it I wonder how the open scuppers relate to gas?  Since it is heavier than air would it follow the built in slope of the deck until it found the scuppers and discharge through the transom outside the hull in the same manner as water?  I don't want to test it but it would be an interesting experiment.  The only time I think you have a real risk is when at anchor in calm conditions.  When underway there is plenty of air movement that would prevent the gas from accumulating.  If anchored in a windy area again I think in theory the accumulation wouldn't become thick enough to be flammable.  But there is a definite reason to have a low point vent to the outside of the hull and it makes perfect sense to do so.  I made the locker as a standalone box with epoxy filets and tape on all corner inside and out.  I want it to be airtight.

As a question, how and where do you store your disposable bottles?  How many do you keep?  Does it have a low point vent outside the hull?  I found that I had 3 or 4 on the boat usually in the storage area under the cuddy bunk.  Not the best idea by a long shot.  I have never had a bulk tank leak when shut off, I have had a bottle leak, once after it had been used and then removed.  I took a screw driver and pushed in the valve and it stopped when I released it.  I didn't continue storing it on the boat.  If someone did not pay attention and removed that bottle from the stove and set it in a cabinet in the cabin it might cause an issue.  That is one reason to keep the little plastic caps in place, prevents accidently depressing that valve.

I always keep the tank valve off unless I am actively using it and turn it off after.  It does scare me and why I went the step of having a dedicated locker.  I have no fish holds and have sealed access points to the bilge so shouldn't have an issue with the bilge filling. 

If you attempt to remove all possibilities of danger or even fire you would not have a boat, especially a gas boat with an engine that is basically a set of extremely fast and controlled explosions that spin a prop.  Throw in the fact that you are floating in a vast sea of water on a little box built by an amateur who has never done it before, based on something he read on the internet by an East Coast English major and you have to ask yourself, is this safe?  Is it worth it?  My answer is Hell Yeh, others think I am insane.  Both points have some truth.

Good question and one I have thought about and wrestled with, a lot.  It is a good topic for others to consider.  Thanks for bringing it up.  I am not looking to high jack your thread but you asked <grin>  Ken

Paul’s response…
2)  I store the small propane bottles in the large port compartment under the lounge seat.  It is not vented, however I may rethink this and store them in the wet locker under the bench seat, this has a drain to overboard which will act as a propane vent.  I'll put a piece of Dri-Dek in there to keep the bottoms of the tanks dry.  I usually have 3 or 4 on board while voyaging.  Until Ken mentioned one of these valves leaking, I thought it would be OK to store these bottles in a non-vented.

My response and the start of this new thread…
I have never had a new unused one leak.  In theory they could, especially if the cap is removed but I have had hundreds of them without an issue.  I have also never had a bulk tank leak when the valve was turned off and I have had dozens over the years.  I actually think they are safe.  I like your idea of storing them in the vented wet locker if you can keep them dry.  I also have a piece of my decking mat in my propane locker to keep them dry and quiet.

Where I had an issue with one disposable leaking was after removing when it was half empty.  I have also done that more times than I can count and had it happen once and I could hear it hissing.  It was enough that it makes me think about it when removing one but I  think using a little common sense when removing one and double checking it sealed is plenty safe.  I have kept 3 disposable bottles in my cuddy storage for 6 years and have never had even a hint of a propane smell in that time and they were left year round.  In my opinion there are many other more dangerous aspects of a boat.  But at the same time if I was building a propane locker why not build it for disposable bottles as well?

I think the much more common issue with propane is not from the tanks but from the hose or the built in appliance.  These are the questions I would ask if someone was to ask be about adding propane to their boat. 
  • Are you using rated hoses designed for propane with tested fittings or are you using hoses you created yourself with barbed fittings and hose clamps?  I would never build my own for boat use but have for outdoor use at a cabin or home.  They reside in the open and I have never had an issue with them leaking but is a risk I am not willing to take on a boat.
  • Are your hoses securely fastened so they are not in danger of being caught and pulled loose?
  • Do you pressure test them?
  • Are your appliances marine rated, if they are not portable?

In the end it is about what is an acceptable level of risk for you.  You will never want to live risk free so it becomes an individual decision.  I think these types of discussion are good to point out the possible dangers.  With all being said about what I consider the safety aspects of propane, I would never use my propane locker for an ash tray. 

I would like to hear from others with knowledge or thoughts in this area.  Ken

 58 
 on: July 02, 2015, 11:42:06 AM 
Started by larspa - Last post by pfithian
I did mine with epoxy and adhesive fiber, but it was before l learned about PL Premium.

On my next build, I will definitely use PL Premium.  It is way easier to dispense, expands to fill gaps, and is stronger than the glue holding the plywood layers together.  This area gets a fat fillet and glass reinforcement after filpping anyway.

For those that are not using my Alternative Build Order and depend on a secondary bond between the stringers and bottom, be sure to sand/rough up the glassed area that you will be gluing to.

 59 
 on: July 02, 2015, 11:20:18 AM 
Started by pfithian - Last post by pfithian
To answer a couple of questions here:

1)  I've not seen any warpage in the steel plate.  It is 1/4" thick and works great.  We are planning on a voyage up the west coast of Michigan this weekend, I'll post some pictures of my culinary creations.  So far I have cooked three meals on it here at home to test it out.  Works fantastic.

2)  I store the small propane bottles in the large port comparment under the lounge seat.  It is not vented, however I may rethink this and store them in the wet locker under the bench seat, this has a drain to overboard which will act as a propane vent.  I'll put a piece of Dri-Dek in there to keep the bottoms of the tanks dry.  I usually have 3 or 4 on board while voyaging.  Until Ken mentioned one of these valves leaking, I thought it would be OK to store these bottles in a non-vented.

 60 
 on: July 02, 2015, 11:10:48 AM 
Started by larspa - Last post by Dave Wright
At this stage there is a lot work that has to be accomplished before the epoxy first applied has set up.  And obviously, you can't just mix up gallons before you start.  Being a "half full" sort'a guy, I can imagine all sorts of things going wrong where there won't be time to fix before you're done.  OK, I confess: How much beer do I need to buy?   Grin

te

It's not a problem doing it by yourself, just be organized, get everything set up, and do it on a cool day, you'll have a couple of hours, which is more than enough. Your signature info says you started building your kit in 09. What happened to slow the build down?

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